BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The Abominable Bride (for those who have seen it)

nakahara · January 3, 2016 11:35 am

Liberty wrote:
Yes. And a lot of what we saw of her was in Sherlock's mind palace, not actually her. It seems that to imagine what it was like to be a woman in that setting, he imagined how the women (and the men!) he knew would act in it. The graveyard scene with "better" is in Sherlock's mind only, and I think it was not only funny, but I comment on women's place and the throwaway comments that highlight that. The whole thing is also a bit of a comment on women in the ACD stories, I suppose. Mary even has to pretend to be a client to get John's attention/get into the story. I approve of how Mary was shown in this episode. Unlike some, I don't see her as cleverer than Mycroft, but I'm really glad that her past has been acknowledged and not brushed under the carpet, whether she turns out to be a goodie or a baddie in S4.

Writer usually writes to tell stories, not to push various political agendas around. If they do, their agency can no longer be called storytelling - it´s propaganda.

ACD wrote about men mostly, yes. But that doesn´t mean that his work must be "improved" now by adding lots of female characters into it.

Why should ACD be singled out like that and his stories raped in this manner? It´s not as if he had a privilege to push his view over the other writers or to prevent others from creating cool women characters. It´s just that his creation proved to be most popular and most enduring in reader´s minds over time. That´s all. Why must he be posthumously "punished" for this, together with his character?

You err if you think that no female detectives appeared in fiction of Victorian/Edwardian Era. The first female detective, Mrs Gladden, appeared in fiction in 1864, decades before ACD created Sherlock Holmes.

http://www.crimefictionlover.com/2013/09/cis-the-first-female-detectives/

ACD´s contemporary, Baroness Orczy (a woman writer who also created Scarlett Pimpernel and The Old Man in the Corner) wrote wery popular books about female detective, Lady Molly of Scotland Yard. The books were immensely popular with her readers at the time:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Molly_of_Scotland_Yard

Despite it being the Victorian/edwardian Era, people loved to read about female detectives and they had no objections against female writers too. So to claim that women had absolutely no voice and no agency of their own in that era is incorrect.

If Mofftiss or anybody else want to explore these female detectives, they should adapt their stories on-screen, not to forcefully push female character into a well-established work of another writer. It´s as stupid as to write female musketeers into Dumas´s novels to "make them better" or to let Eowyn single-handedly defeat Sauron in Tolkien´s epic. Unneccessary and reaking of propaganda.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 11:44 am

Are we getting into the realms of what might happen in S4?
Victorian Mary is pretty much as she was in S3.
The suffragettes were just a one off plot device. I don't think we'll be seeing them again.

SolarSystem · January 3, 2016 11:46 am

stoertebeker wrote:
SolarSystem wrote:
stoertebeker wrote:

What does that has do to with it??? Disliking a character is one thing and perfectly fine, we all have different opinions.
Oh...? And where is that coming from all of a sudden? Sorry, but two pages ago you basically asked the people who see Mary in a negative light to stop writing about it. But now it's "perfectly fine"...?
I'm confused. So is it okay now to state a negative opinion about Mary or not? And to make this clear: What I wrote about her had nothing to do with bashing or hating. I explained why I don't like her and why she is a disturbing factor in the show. If that is bashing and hating, then we have completely different opinions about the nature of discussions.

I didn't said anything like that. I didn't ask anyone to stop writing. I said that I wish that we stop tearing each other apart over the character of Mary. Because the discussions whether she is good or bad are leading to nothing. We are going in circles, filling pages of pages of comments and just goat each other. That is not fun anymore.
And yes there are some comments I am feeling very uncomfortable with, but as I said before I might be too oversensitive.

If I have offended you or anyone with my previous comment, then I am very sorry. That was truly never my intention. And please understand that as a serious apology. Most of the time I'm keeping quiet in discussions because of the fear I got misunderstood. Well I should have stayed silent I suppose. I am sorry.

stoertebeker, it's all fine. I'm totally with you that we're going in circles (and basically have been going in circles for two years) when it comes to Mary. Nevertheless I am convinced that most of the posts which have been critical about Mary have tried to give good reasons and to show examples from the episodes in order to substantiate the critical view. This can be hard to take for someone who loves the character, I'm sure. But I also find it hard to take to basically be named a hater or basher when in truth I've voiced my opinion and explained my point of view.

But let's move on.

Liberty · January 3, 2016 11:47 am

Nakahara, I didn't say any of that! And I don't think Moftiss are saying that ACD's stories "should" be corrected. I do think it might have been odd to transplant the male/female relationships there directly into modern times. I can see why they made Mary different (particularly in the sense of not fading into the background after she was married), and why they added Molly, etc. It's quite different to adding Tauriel, I think. Having the episode "set" in Victorian times really highlights those changes, and their omission in the original stories. Watson treating Mary like that contrasts with the current time - and that's all VERY relevant to the plot.

Of course, this isn't actual Watson, it's Sherlock's imagining. Even Sherlock's imagining seems uncomfortable in the situation, though! He really struggles in the conversation with the maid. Another man out of time .

nakahara · January 3, 2016 11:50 am

besleybean wrote:
Are we getting into the realms of what might happen in S4?
Victorian Mary is pretty much as she was in S3.
The suffragettes were just a one off plot device. I don't think we'll be seeing them again.

Don´t call them suffragetes, they were anything but - a bunch of terrorist more or less.
The real suffragettes had some loonies between them, especially Mary Richardson, a woman who attacked the Rokeby Venus painting with a knife (and later became a fascist, unsurprisingly):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mary_Richardson

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rokeby_Venus

but other members were pretty much normal and decent people. I doubt they would use murders to push their agenda.

Zatoichi · January 3, 2016 11:55 am

This all sounds very Dr. Who to me - just with drug-induced delirium instead of time-travel. Overlapping realities/timelines, different incarnations influencing each other, the formula for forth dimension and a pithy remark at the right time to make impossible things possible.. not my cup of tea, but I can acknowledge the ambition and inventiveness/cleverness behind such a story. Good to hear so many of you liked it, I will certainly watch it too, sometime.

Last edited by Zatoichi (January 3, 2016 11:56 am)

mrshouse · January 3, 2016 11:57 am

Oh, it's definitely worth watching, give it a try, zatoichi

Harobed · January 3, 2016 12:04 pm

Solenn wrote:
Mycroft killed me

Truth be told Solenn, Mycroft was killing Himself, ha. (groan)

Harobed · January 3, 2016 12:12 pm

James Norrington wrote:
So I assume I'm not the only one completely clueless of what is going on?
Because that happened to me too when I first watched HLV and I thought it was because my English's not very good.

WHAT THE HELL HAVE WE BEEN JUST WATCHING?!?!

LOL, LOL James! I do believe that you bravely spoke up for several of us! (how's THAT sentence for a "Please help me with my English" ~ expression!).
*funny*

besleybean · January 3, 2016 12:19 pm

I repeat I have no issues with HLV.
I have watched this twice now and feel I get it more each time.
I will watch it a third time tomorrow.

Harobed · January 3, 2016 12:33 pm

asylum69 wrote:
I practically screamed when I finally recognised the coroner! Although I did have a funny feeling who the pointy hats were once we could see them. So very clever but I do feel a bit sorry for anyone coming to Sherlock for the first time. I recommended tonight's Special to a friend on the strength of it being Victorian, as she hasn't watched the first three seasons - a bit too modern for her - I just know when I see her on Tuesday she's going to be going "Huh&%$$&*(^%^&?>>????" at me. Sorry, Anne ...
Aaaaaaaaaaaanyway, I'm glad it segueded into season 4. More lovely 'what if's' until setlock in the spring. I hope ...

Yeah, man, I really FEEL for your friend! Lol...me, I wouldn't recommend "TAB" to ANYONE who wasn't already a Sherlockian, :-) boy, are you going to have some explaining to do! Heh heh, like when Ricky comes home & finds out that Lucy drained their bank account, ha ha ha!

ancientsgate · January 3, 2016 1:14 pm

besleybean wrote:
Well I'll say it, too, but before I move onto other threads:
1. If people want to see Johnlock, they will.

And, conversely, if they do not, they won't. Many if not most fans fall into that category. Although we Johnlockers can be a noisy, opinionated group, I don't believe that most fans are Johnlockers.

2. Some people don't like Mary. IMHO, it wouldn't matter what she did or said or if she stood like a silent wallflower. People do not want to acknowledge the marriage or the child. Period.

Oh, I acknowledge both of those things all right; I just don't like their existence, either of them.

I suppose someone has started a TAB Mary thread by now?

ancientsgate · January 3, 2016 1:16 pm

Harriet wrote:
I find it rather tedious that the words "hating" and "bashing" are around again. Not respectful towards all the people here who just happen to have a different opinion.

Thank you Harriet. Well said.

besleybean · January 3, 2016 1:17 pm

@ancientsgate Not that I'm aware of...we're still on the existing Mary threads, across the whole board is a spoiler zone now.
Incidentally I will have to disagree with you.
I definitely think in the wide world the Johnlockers are in the majority.
I actually think they are on this forum, too.
Anybody care to do survey, so we actually have the accurate figures?

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2016 1:18 pm)

ancientsgate · January 3, 2016 1:36 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
This all sounds very Dr. Who to me - just with drug-induced delirium instead of time-travel. Overlapping realities/timelines, different incarnations influencing each other, the formula for forth dimension and a pithy remark at the right time to make impossible things possible.. not my cup of tea, but I can acknowledge the ambition and inventiveness/cleverness behind such a story. Good to hear so many of you liked it, I will certainly watch it too, sometime.

I agree that TAB was Dr. Who-ish in style. Same writers, producers, studio. My adult son commented in my hearing on Christmas that he'd just watched the latest Dr. Who episode and was totally lost, "What in hell happened? What did it all mean?" and he's been following Dr. Who for years. So... apparently Sherlock is not the only fandom being fed this particular brand of story-telling. Whatever happened to just telling a story, with characters people could care about, a story with a beginning, a middle and an end? I know, a discussion for another thread. And I also know, it is what it is.

silverblaze · January 3, 2016 1:37 pm

@Besley: There is a survey somewhere on this board. It turned out that about two thirds are johnlockers and one third is not.

But I think AG was referring to the more 'casual' fans, people who follow the series but don't really get involved in the fandom. My suspicion is that in that group, it's mostly non shippers, while in the more active part of the fandom, it's mostly shippers.

Last edited by silverblaze (January 3, 2016 1:38 pm)

besleybean · January 3, 2016 1:41 pm

I rest my case.

But yes, I take the other points!

Last edited by besleybean (January 3, 2016 1:42 pm)

SolarSystem · January 3, 2016 1:47 pm

ancientsgate wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
This all sounds very Dr. Who to me - just with drug-induced delirium instead of time-travel. Overlapping realities/timelines, different incarnations influencing each other, the formula for forth dimension and a pithy remark at the right time to make impossible things possible.. not my cup of tea, but I can acknowledge the ambition and inventiveness/cleverness behind such a story. Good to hear so many of you liked it, I will certainly watch it too, sometime.
I agree that TAB was Dr. Who-ish in style. Same writers, producers, studio. My adult son commented in my hearing on Christmas that he'd just watched the latest Dr. Who episode and was totally lost, "What in hell happened? What did it all mean?" and he's been following Dr. Who for years. So... apparently Sherlock is not the only fandom being fed this particular brand of story-telling. Whatever happened to just telling a story, with characters people could care about, a story with a beginning, a middle and an end? I know, a discussion for another thread. And I also know, it is what it is.

Where can I sign this...? This is so true. Although I have to say TAB didn't really leave me lost, I think it's actually pretty good story-telling. But it's almost impossible to not recognize that Moffat basically runs both shows, "Sherlock" and "Doctor Who". I know there is Mark Gatiss for "Sherlock", too, and he probably influenced the ghost story in TAB very much. Incidentally, I neither liked the ghost story aspect of TAB very much, nor do I particularly like the ghost storeis he wrote for DW.
But this is really getting off topic, I guess.

ancientsgate · January 3, 2016 2:02 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
....But this is really getting off topic, I guess.

Are there other TAB threads? I only found two, this one and one marked as being for people's speculations about the episode before it aired.

Liberty · January 3, 2016 2:08 pm

This should link to them all, hopefully: http://sherlock.boardhost.com/viewforum.php?id=62