BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Doctor Who

ukaunz · December 5, 2015 12:52 pm

You might find it here http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GroundhogDayLoop, under "Music Videos"

Lilythiell · December 5, 2015 6:35 pm

I'm excited to watch the finale tonight !

silverblaze · December 5, 2015 6:52 pm

ukaunz wrote:
You might find it here http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GroundhogDayLoop, under "Music Videos"

Ah, thanks, it was 'Seven Days'. Not a very interesting song otherwise, IMHO. What a great page, I had no idea that that particular storyline was that common.

Lilythiell · December 6, 2015 12:23 am

Wow, that series finale! Gorgeous! So many things, so many nods to what happened before!

And, I mean, the round things! And the Doctor has a new sonic! What a relief, I was getting really tired of the sunglasses >.<

Liberty · December 6, 2015 9:35 am

Yes, I was pretty certain that it wasn't going to top last week's episode, and it didn't, but still pretty good. Some thoughts ...

Loved all the references! (I'm sure I didn't get them all). Some nice little points for fans.

I was disappointed about the hybrid.   So all the prophesy meant was that a hybrid would literally stand in the ruins? And it didn't really matter who or what the hybrid was?   After a build-up over the whole series, that fell a bit flat for me! (And I'm not convinced that two different people of different races = a hybrid, even if they're very close! If anything Doctor-like Clara was more of a hybrid herself, a human made living dead by Timelords).

At first I thought Clara was a splinter Clara who didn't know the Doctor, then that she had had her memory wiped, like Donna, and then, of course, it turned that the polarity had been reversed! There was some disagreement in this household over whether this was a good plot point or not. Personally I liked it. What happenned to Donna was tragic, and I didn't really want to see a repeat of it. What happened to the Doctor seemed more gentle: he didn't forget everything, only who Clara was. He must have felt a bit uncomfortable about his four and a half billion years of torture to save an unknown person, but at least he knew that it worked, and that she was out there somewhere.   His "duty of care" line (repeated from an earlier episode) was touching.

The "good" thing about the Doctor having Clara's memory wiped is that he can now start fresh: going into the Christmas episode and the next series he won't be grieving.

Clara seemed pretty perky at the end, and I suppose it turned out that she wanted to be the Doctor more than she wanted to be with the Doctor.    (Was there possibly some sexual/romantic chemistry between her and Ashild'r or was that wishful thinking?).   It was almost a happy ending for her, off in her own personal, stolen (after her telling Hartnell which one to steal!), retro Tardis to have adventures with an immortal friend.   I wonder if they'll be back?

I'd like to have seen more of the Timelords story. Did they really trap the Doctor in his confession dial just to try to find out information about a folk tale?   What had happened to them at the end of time - what DID destroy them, if not the hybrid/Doctor/Me?   Is Gallifrey now "found" and can the Doctor go back if he wants?

I wondered what happened to the immortal highwayman (I've forgotten his name) it would have been nice to see him again! And to see Missy and find out what her clever plan was! But I suppose they couldn't have tied up every single loose end.

Not long until the Christmas episode now, and I'm really looking forward to it! Matt Lucas and Greg Davies!

Last edited by Liberty (December 6, 2015 10:03 am)

Liberty · December 6, 2015 9:40 am

silverblaze wrote:
It's called 'Cause and Effect. It's episode 18, series 5 of TGN. If you like that, you may also like 'Frame of Mind', episode 21, series 6, TGN. They're pretty much my favorite episodes.

Thank you! I watched Cause and Effect and will have a look at Frame of Mind later.

I'm actually wondering now if what I'm reminded of is the Grimms' fairytale itself or a similar story.

ukaunz · December 6, 2015 11:58 am

Wow, I just watched Hell Bent and I want to discuss it, but it's so late and I ought to go to bed... But here's a list of my thoughts/questions/things I liked etc.

- So, I guess I wasn't the only one who took a while to figure out what was going on with Clara in the diner, and then when I thought I'd figured it out, I was wrong (I thought it was Clara who had forgotten who she was).
- Clara asks the Doctor if he's been travelling and he says "yeah, from time to time".
- Is there a song called "Clara's Song"? Was the Doctor playing her theme?
- I wish I knew more about the history of Gallifrey and the Time War. I feel at a disadvantage, not knowing what is going on!
- Was that barn in a previous episode? It looks familiar. What did that Sister mean about the Doctor going "back to the beginning"?
- How did the Gallifreyan woman recognise the Doctor?
- Going by the context, I'm guessing Skull Moon as was a battle of the Time War?
- The Hybird "will unravel the web of time and destroy a billion billion hearts to heal its own. "
- "On pain of death, no-one take a selfie!"
- Doctor wears a ring? I hadn't noticed before.
- "We're on Gallifrey. Death is Time Lord for man flu!"
- "Ugh... Back to normal, am I? The only time I've been a man, that last body. Dear Lord, how do you cope with all that ego?"
- The Matrix...
- Story about the student in the cloisters, that was the Doctor, was it?
- "I was a completely different person in those days. Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people."
- Clara: "OK, listen... I have something I need to say. [...] My time is up. Doctor, between one heartbeat and the last is all the time I have. People like me and you, we should say things to one another. And I'm going to say them now..." And then the goodbye scene... Damn you Moffat, it was like reliving the tarmac scene! What did Clara say to the Doctor!?
- Original Tardis interior? Awesome!
- I just knew it would be Me
- Still no definite answer about the Hybrid, just theories. So the Hybrid is two people? Not actually a genetic hybrid?
- All the talk about Missy, the lover of chaos, pushing the Doctor and Clara together, and the Doctor insisting "we're just friends"... why does this make me think of Sherlock?
- "What Clara told you in the Cloisters... You said memories become stories when we forget them. Maybe some of them become songs." Is he going to spend the next season composing a song?
- Clara and Ashildr taking off in their own Tardis. Sexual tension? Possibly, haven't there been hints that Clara is bisexual?
- New sonic screwdriver! My son loves it and wants one.

I agree, not quite as good as last week's episode, but I still liked it.

Last edited by ukaunz (December 6, 2015 11:58 am)

Lilythiell · December 6, 2015 4:01 pm

I want to discuss this as well, it's going to be hard to do so with the time zones, but...
I've tried to answer your questions as best I could, ukaunz, but I think we need a classic expert for some things

At first, when we saw that the scene was taking place in Nevada, I automatically thought of 11 meeting Amy, Rory and River there. And when we saw Clara in the diner, I also assumed that she didn't know who the Doctor was. Didn't last, though, even if she was pretty convincing. I didn't go through the stage of thinking that she didn't know who she was. I did go through a "WTH is she doing here, she's supposed to be dead! He's pulling a Rory on us! Not the Impossible girl again!"
I think the episode showed really well how much the Doctor "doesn't like endings". And Moffat proably doesn't like them much, as well, given how the episode ended *praying for no spin-off, there. Although I suppose it could work, given Ashildr's and Clara's personalities are so different that they balance each other out...but how can she fly a TARDIS when she's not a Time Lady??*
- I absolutely adore the "from time to time" line. Turns out she got the joke, after all.
- As for the song the Doctor was playing, it is Clara's theme, yes.
- The barn was in The Day Of The Doctor, when we saw The Moment (Billie) and when he took the decision to press the button, supposedly to end the Time Lords and effectively locking putting them in a Timelock. I gather that's why the Lord President wanted to catch the Doctor. Was not very happy that they could not interfere (or even watch) with whatever was happening in the universe.
-"Back to the beginning" because, once again, that's where he went with the Moment. I found that reference very, very neat. Brought me back to the Excel for the 50th anniversary, tbh.
-I suppose that the Gallifreyan woman recognise the Doctor because this face was the one he left Gallifrey with, last time he was there. Or maybe, as when 11 was granted a whole new cycle of regenerations, the happenings were shown on Gallifrey (so the Gallifreyans could know what good action their President had done, in continuing the protection of THE war hero). I really have to check, I don't remember Matt's last episode (I liked to pretend it didn't happen. Don't like it when regenerations happen. At all), nor series 8 at all, I found it [series 8] was a rather feeble one -I suppose that was the time for me to grieve 11 and for Peter to find his inner Doctor?
- The Hybird "will unravel the web of time and destroy a billion billion hearts to heal its own." If that doesn't scream Doctor, I don't know what does.
- "On pain of death, no-one take a selfie!" "We're on Gallifrey. Death is Time Lord for man flu!"
Yes, he did say a number of funny things, didn't he?
-The student i the cloisters was indeed the Doctor... "I was a completely different person in those days. Eccentric, a bit mad, rude to people." in what way is that different from the Doctor we've known this series?
- "The Round Things!"
-I'm really glad to think I was not the only one thinking there was some UST between Ashildr and Clara. Jack/Undead!Ianto, anyone?
-I really dig the new sonic. And I'm SO relieved the glasses are GONE, at last!

I happen to think it was an excellent episode, and that the whole series -minus the supposedly scary one (sorry, Godtiss...) was almost perfect. Return to Classic Who, I should think.
Now, does anyone know when (if...?) they're planning to sell the "complete series 9" boxset instead of the "series 9, part 1" and "series 9, part 2" ? It's silly, but all my other boxsets are of "complete series" and I'd hate to break that pattern!

Last edited by Lilythiell (December 6, 2015 4:04 pm)

ukaunz · December 7, 2015 2:53 am

So for the last few months I've been watching the NuWho episodes from the start, trying to catch up so I can understand all these story arcs and characters etc. On the weekend I watched The Stolen Earth (S04E12) and was thoroughly confused. Did I miss something?? I knew some of the characters... Donna and her family, Martha Jones, Rose, Captain Jack, Harriet Jones and Sarah Jane Smith... And I vaguely knew about UNIT and Torchwood... But all of a sudden it was like I'd missed an episode or two. Since when does Sarah Jane have a teenaged son? What is this Mr Smith computer? Have we been introduced to Ianto Jones and Gwen before, because I certainly don't remember that happening, although it felt like I was supposed to know them. I kind of know about Davros from Classic Who and later episodes of NuWho... I know nothing about the Shadow Architect though. I really felt like I was thrown in the deep end with this episode! It was exciting though! And kinda funny... except for (oh no!) another regeneration, and now I'm going to miss David Tennant But I will get to know Matt Smith better, and meet Amy and Rory

Last edited by ukaunz (December 7, 2015 2:53 am)

ukaunz · December 7, 2015 3:16 am

Hell Bent spoilers, btw the spoiler tag doesn't seem to work well with quote tags, so I've taken them out.

Lilythiell wrote: At first, when we saw that the scene was taking place in Nevada, I automatically thought of 11 meeting Amy, Rory and River there. And when we saw Clara in the diner, I also assumed that she didn't know who the Doctor was. Didn't last, though, even if she was pretty convincing. I didn't go through the stage of thinking that she didn't know who she was. I did go through a "WTH is she doing here, she's supposed to be dead! He's pulling a Rory on us! Not the Impossible girl again!"

Oops, spoilers, I haven't seen that one yet

Lilythiell wrote: I think the episode showed really well how much the Doctor "doesn't like endings". And Moffat proably doesn't like them much, as well, given how the episode ended *praying for no spin-off, there. Although I suppose it could work, given Ashildr's and Clara's personalities are so different that they balance each other out...but how can she fly a TARDIS when she's not a Time Lady??*

I just had this feeling they weren't going to leave Clara dead... I don't know about a spin-off, might be cool though. Lots of people have wanted a "female Doctor", this might be a good substitute. Hm, Clara is not a Time Lady, but maybe because she is "time-locked" she is able to operate the Tardis? I know nothing about it really.

Lilythiell wrote: - As for the song the Doctor was playing, it is Clara's theme, yes.

I knew the companions had musical themes, but I hadn't noticed a theme for Clara. I'll have to listen more closely.

Lilythiell wrote: - The barn was in The Day Of The Doctor, when we saw The Moment (Billie) and when he took the decision to press the button, supposedly to end the Time Lords and effectively locking putting them in a Timelock. I gather that's why the Lord President wanted to catch the Doctor. Was not very happy that they could not interfere (or even watch) with whatever was happening in the universe.
-"Back to the beginning" because, once again, that's where he went with the Moment. I found that reference very, very neat. Brought me back to the Excel for the 50th anniversary, tbh.
-I suppose that the Gallifreyan woman recognise the Doctor because this face was the one he left Gallifrey with, last time he was there. Or maybe, as when 11 was granted a whole new cycle of regenerations, the happenings were shown on Gallifrey (so the Gallifreyans could know what good action their President had done, in continuing the protection of THE war hero). I really have to check, I don't remember Matt's last episode (I liked to pretend it didn't happen. Don't like it when regenerations happen. At all), nor series 8 at all, I found it [series 8] was a rather feeble one -I suppose that was the time for me to grieve 11 and for Peter to find his inner Doctor?

Ah, thank you, I guess I will understand more about events the more I watch!

Lilythiell wrote:
I happen to think it was an excellent episode, and that the whole series -minus the supposedly scary one (sorry, Godtiss...) was almost perfect. Return to Classic Who, I should think.

I think I'm just missing quite a bit of context for this episode which means I can't enjoy it as much as other fans who know more about what's going on. (And that Sleep No More episode? I really wanted to like it, but...)

I'll probably have to watch this one again, after I've done a bit of homework (reading DW wikis).

Last edited by ukaunz (December 7, 2015 11:04 am)

SolarSystem · December 7, 2015 7:20 am

ukaunz wrote:
So for the last few months I've been watching the NuWho episodes from the start, trying to catch up so I can understand all these story arcs and characters etc. On the weekend I watched The Stolen Earth (S04E12) and was thoroughly confused. Did I miss something?? I knew some of the characters... Donna and her family, Martha Jones, Rose, Captain Jack, Harriet Jones and Sarah Jane Smith... And I vaguely knew about UNIT and Torchwood... But all of a sudden it was like I'd missed an episode or two. Since when does Sarah Jane have a teenaged son? What is this Mr Smith computer? Have we been introduced to Ianto Jones and Gwen before, because I certainly don't remember that happening, although it felt like I was supposed to know them. I kind of know about Davros from Classic Who and later episodes of NuWho... I know nothing about the Shadow Architect though. I really felt like I was thrown in the deep end with this episode! It was exciting though! And kinda funny... except for (oh no!) another regeneration, and now I'm going to miss David Tennant But I will get to know Matt Smith better, and meet Amy and Rory

I think I can answer some of your questions.
We haven't been introduced to Gwen and Ianto in DW before, but at the time "The Stolen Earth" was shown on TV there already was "Torchwood". So if you knew "Torchwood", you also knew Ianto and Gwen. If you didn't know TW, then you most likely hadn't seen them before. I knew TW before I knew DW, so for me it was nice to see Ianto and Gwen in a DW episode.
Shadow Architect...? I guess you mean the Shadow Proclamation where Ten and Donna travel to in order to find out what happened to Earth, right? I think Ten (and possibly also Nine) mentioned the Shadow Proclamation in earlier episodes, but we first saw them in "The Stolen Earth". So you didn't really miss anything there.
I can't really answer your Sarah Jane question, but there is a spin-off called "The Sarah Jane Adventures", and I suppose that in this show you would learn why she has a teenage son. I haven't seen it though.

Last edited by SolarSystem (December 7, 2015 7:21 am)

Liberty · December 7, 2015 10:07 am

silverblaze wrote:
Liberty wrote:
One answer is that there were no clues the first time (no, muddy spade, clothes, obviously no skull or "bird", no "I am in 12", etc.). And so, either the Doctor managed to do what he did without the clues the first time, or he failed. The trouble with him failing is that he wouldn't have burned himself up to fuel his return, so wouldn't have returned ... or would he?
No, not necessarily, that was what I was trying to say. The only piece of understanding he needed to keep the cycle going was that he could revive a copy of himself with the transporter. He didn't need any of the clues for that so he could have worked it out the first time.

The other element of this puzzle that I worked out this night is that the rooms don't reset themselves to their original position, they reset themselves to the condition the Doctor arrived in. An important difference! That's how he is able to make changes, leave clues and make the wall incrementally weaker.

The changes he leaves at first would probable be more random, steering his next incarnations in all kinds of directions until he works out he has to die in order to escape. Maybe in an earlier version, he goes away after discovering the wall and buries the stone.

We only meet him when all the clues are already in place, shaped over millions of years, very much like evolution.

I'm coming back to this one again! One problem I have with that is that the castle, which is otherwise very sparse and minimalist, seems to contain all the clues. There's a spade. There's a clothes rack next to the fire. There's the eyeglass, and the lilies and painting there, as if they have been set up.

Suppose the Doctor didn't get the clue about 12? He wouldn't have known room 12 was anything special. So he wouldn't have given another confession to make the rooms move and run down to it. Perhaps he came across it by chance ... but once he entered the room, he was trapped, wasn't he? Maybe he could have made a confession at the far end of the castle and run back and just happened to notice that 12 had opened, punch the wall, run out, scrape the message on the stone and bury it, and (but there still must have been a spade there for him to place one there). However, if he had THAT much time then wouldn't he have placed more obvious clues? If there as time for him to get out, why not just keep luring the Veil to the other side of the castle, running back and punching the wall (or hitting it with the space) then getting it out - it would have been quicker than dying slowly and working it out all over again? Also, I think that time would have to have been right at the beginning - there is one skull each time. So after the very first time the Doctor kills himself to bring himself back, he must have picked up the skull and lured the Veil up to the parapet, and why would he do that if he didn't know the significance of 12? Without the information, he'd just have kept running, and avoiding confessing.

I feel like I'm going round in circles, when I try to think of it! I agree that we meet him further down the line, though - I think at 7000 years.

And the funny thing is, it turns out that he

didnn't know who the hybrid was, or the signficance of it - there was nothing to "confess" apart from his own suspicions and guesses

Liberty wrote:
But watching the second time, he's really clear about remembering, and that's why he's so distressed, remembering that day and half dying crawl and realising that he has to do it all again for millions of years. It's really clear, and repeated, and I think I just dismissed it because it didn't make sense.
Yeah, but that's the problem: it doesn't make any sense. Why would he need the clues? And he's a copy, so for him it's really the first time. How could he remember if he never experienced it? I think those references you mention are not because he remembers it but because he's worked out his situation. Maybe he has some vague deja vu feelings, but certainly no full episodic memory.

I just think the dialogue is really clear, and his distress is evident: it's not just because what he has to do seems onerous but because he remembers doing it thousands/millions/billions of times before. I agree that it doesn't make sense for the copy to remember, but I think he does. Unfortunately, he only remembers at that time, just before he dies. I few posts back, I posted what he says, and I find it really difficult to interpret it as anything other than him suddenly remembering. I'll just have to think of it as "magic" .

Liberty · December 7, 2015 10:15 am

I love all your points about Hell Bent!

I think the barn was also in "Listen".

One of my favourite little references was when the Doctor was asked to put down his weapon, and he put down the spoon - it reminded me of Robot of Sherwood!

I'm still not happy with the Doctor and Clara being the hybrid, IF that's the case - surely a hybrid should be two in one, not .. two in two? I know they overlapped a bit, but I'm kind of unhappy with that. I presuming that destroying hearts referred to the Doctor burning himself over and over in Heaven Sent, so it makes sense that he thought he was the hybrid. But in the end ... it doesn't matter? If this was something just personal to the Doctor and Clara, why would it be a Gallifreyan prophecy? Did I miss something? I think I'm going to have to watch it again, maybe with subtitles to make sure I'm getting it all, as I definitely missed some bits of dialogue.

Lilythiell · December 7, 2015 5:31 pm

SolarSystem wrote:
I can't really answer your Sarah Jane question, but there is a spin-off called "The Sarah Jane Adventures", and I suppose that in this show you would learn why she has a teenage son. I haven't seen it though.

Indeed, that's answered in the spin-off. The teenage son arrives pretty early in the series (1st episode, if I remember correctly), but he's not exactly her son. Adopted.
As for Mr. Smith the computer, well. He's the equivalent of the Doctor on earth, I think, that Sarah had built for herself because she so missed the Doctor when he left her in Croydon.

And, erm, ukaunz, so sorry about that spoiler thing

ukaunz · December 7, 2015 7:54 pm

Thanks for answering my questions guys

Haha, don't worry Lily, I was joking! They are very old episodes after all, and I know a lot of spoilers (and I was quoting River Song, couldn't you tell?)

Last edited by ukaunz (December 7, 2015 7:56 pm)

Lilythiell · December 7, 2015 8:21 pm

*facepalm*

silverblaze · December 7, 2015 10:36 pm

Liberty wrote:
I just think the dialogue is really clear, and his distress is evident: it's not just because what he has to do seems onerous but because he remembers doing it thousands/millions/billions of times before. I agree that it doesn't make sense for the copy to remember, but I think he does. Unfortunately, he only remembers at that time, just before he dies. I few posts back, I posted what he says, and I find it really difficult to interpret it as anything other than him suddenly remembering. I'll just have to think of it as "magic" .

Maybe he experiences some 'memory echoes' from the copies. That's something I just made up, but DW logic pretty much works this way. And I guess there might not be an actual in-universe explanation for all the clues to be there. The plot required them, and as far as I'm aware it's very hard to plot a story like that.

Thanks to whoever worked out that the quotes and spoiler tags don't work together. I didn't understand it.

Hell Bent

Just like last year I thought the trailer promised more than the actual episode could deliver, but this time I expected it and it was still a great episode.

I loved the bar scene prologue where it looks like Clara doesn't remember, and then the twist on the end. Totally fooled me.

It was great to see Galifrey, for me it was really the first time because I only started watching last year. 'Death is Timelord for manflu' LOL!

I also thought of Robots of Sherwood when the Doctor put down the spoon. Little injoke I guess.

The hybrid: do we now know for sure what the hybrid is or was everything speculation? They made it seem like Ashildr's theory was the correct one, but she was also guessing. I loved the Doctor's snarkiness about the prophecy: 'what colour does it have?' Maybe the prophecy really is so aspecific that it might as well have been two people and Ashildr was right. And him destroying hearts referring to him destroying himself, I totally missed that but of course! That's brilliant.

The biggest surprise for me was Clara's return. It felt so right after she'd been killed a bit offhandedly in episode ten. This was a more worthy farewell and what a great twist again. And now she and Ashildr are off in their own tardis, I hope we might see them again, in a small part in a future episode or something. Like Lily, I got the impression that Moffat might not be so good at killing characters than we sometimes seem to think.

That scene where the Doctor talks to Clara and he doesn't remember her just broke my heart. It reminded me of people with Alzheimers or other neurodegenerative diseases who lose their memories in a process that can only be described as very slow dying. And then the paint that fell off the tardis when he left underlined that whole theme. Very moving.

Looking forward to the Christmas special, meeting River for the first time (I really need to catch up with the older episodes too). Wonder where she'll be in her timeline, it's reversed, isn't it?'

ukaunz · December 11, 2015 11:05 am

Aww, Peter, what a guy
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-12-10/peter-capaldi-surprises-young-doctor-who-fan-in-hospital-stays-in-character-the-whole-time

SolarSystem · December 11, 2015 12:17 pm

That is absolutely wonderful...!

besleybean · December 11, 2015 6:17 pm

Bless his heart.