Yes! I said just the same a few posts back!  I thought it was funny after the Doctor talking about Beethoven when he described the bootstrap paradox!  Anyway, I thought the music was very well done, verging on overpowering at times, but very good. 

Well, I didn't mention the Allegretto but that was exactly the part I was thinking of!  If we both heard it, it must have been there. 

I'm glad you're getting that feeling too about the episode.  Isn't it odd?  If you can work out what it is, I'd love to know, even if it turns out that it's reminding us of different things!

Last edited by Liberty (December 2, 2015 7:57 am)

Groundhog day is a really good suggestion.   The other one I thought of was Source Code.  That's still not it, for me, though!

I think we're probably past having to do use spoiler tags, aren't we?  But just in case people don't want them - SPOILERS FOLLOW!  (Edit: spoiler tags added, just in case!  Until we have a decision about how long to keep them!)



I watched Heaven Sent again (that's how good it is - it's rare that I'll watch an episode twice!) and noticed a few things that I didn't quite catch the first time. 

A couple of the more striking things were that the Doctor really does remember all the billions of times he spend a day and a half crawling and dying (I did think he did first time round, but was talked out of it because it doesn't quite make sense that the current version of himself would remember. But he does). 

And the other thing is that when the Doctor says something like "I'm nothing without an audience", he glances towards us on "audience"! 

Oh, and the other thing - I can't believe I missed this because it's so much part of the plot and I feel a bit dim now - revealing the secrets doesn't just stop the Veil, it's what makes the castle move.  I didn't connect the two.   That's why the Doctor lures the Veil up to the parapet, so that the door to room 12 will open.  

One more thing: "I am in 12", I think is a cheeky reference to Capaldi being Twelve, but I also noticed that the stone itself has 12 sides.  And I wondered if it was also a reference to the 12 numbers on a clockface (a suggestion of time, and of the clockwork workings of the castle which would open the door).

Last edited by Liberty (December 5, 2015 9:02 am)

So should we keep marking spoilers until each new episode airs? I'm definitely careful to stay away from this thread until I've seen the newest episode, but new readers of the thread might not realise.

Heaven Sent is definitely one of my favourites so far too. I like the thinky episodes, and the timey wimey ones, I like how they make my mind spin trying to work them out.

Your idea about the rooms not completely resetting is a good one, the way the clues would gradually build up in his subconscious and becoming a routine makes sense. Then again, there is always a chance that we do overthink things

I didn't notice the skull transition until the second time I watched it. I read somewhere that the skulls were modelled after Capaldi's head using forensic techniques. Here, I found the link:
http://www.radiotimes.com/news/2015-11-28/guess-who-modelled-for-the-skulls-in-doctor-who-episode-heaven-sent

Yes, he does remember, there's a very specific moment when he remembers that he's done it all before. It's right after he finds the azbantium wall, he suddenly says "bird!" and then:
"That's when I remember! Always then. Always... then. Always exactly then! I can't keep doing this, Clara! I can't! Why is it always me? Why is it never anybody else's turn?!"

Run Lola Run might well be the one I'm thinking of, I haven't seen it in a very long time, but I do recall the tension and suspense each time she had to go back. I had thought of Groundhog Day as the obvious one, but it didn't have the same agonising feel to it as this DW episode, for me anyway.

I can't wait to see how they continue/resolve this story in the final episode! I hope some of our questions will be answered.

Last edited by ukaunz (December 5, 2015 4:09 am)

And I'll just try to put my reply to you in a big spoiler, silverblaze! 

silverblaze wrote:

There's a bit of the bootstrap paradox going on in this episode too, I think. (And in quite a lot of DW episodes, general problem with time travel). I think the solution is that the rooms don't reset perfectly, so that after who knows how many times, the Doctor would have been able to leave clues behind, while also working on an escape plan.

Because he has free will, he probably wouldn't always react in exact the same way; there would be some random changes and as long as he remembers to go back to the transporter, he can take as long as he likes to 'learn' incrementally over time, a bit like evolution. The clues would then be his learning process until, after a very long time, there are so many clues that it now becomes a route, a puzzel to solve for each new incarnation, so that his behaviour doesn't change anymore but can remain fixed on the route towards the wall. 

My feeling was that because the Doctor didn't remember until he was at the wall and had to die, he had no way to go back and leave himself clues.    However, that raised the question for me: what happened the first time round?  (Because he does, maybe accidentally, leave clues).  One answer is that there were no clues the first time (no, muddy spade, clothes, obviously no skull or "bird", no "I am in 12", etc.).  And so, either the Doctor managed to do what he did without the clues the first time, or he failed.   The trouble with him failing is that he wouldn't have burned himself up to fuel his return, so wouldn't have returned ... or would he?  If this really was an interrogation chamber, then whoever set it up wouldn't want the prisoner dead, so maybe it was set to reboot whenever he died?  However, I don't like that explanation because it means the Doctor was wrong, and crawling up for a day and half was pointless.    The other alternative, that the Doctor succeeded right from the very first time, even without the clues: well, that makes the clues kind of pointless, too! 

An alternative is that the clues were there right at the beginning.  This was designed by somebody who knew how the Doctor's mind worked, and it was always meant to lead him round to bringing himself back, in a neverending cycle.  Either it was set up by he, himself, without his knowledge (yes, I'm clutching at straws!), or it was set up by somebody else who knew how he would react and wanted him to bring himself back rather than die - again, interrogators don't want to lose their prisoner.    He was meant to keep going round until one time, whether it was the first time or another time, he realised he was trapped at the wall and confessed.

But then, wouldn't whoever knew him well, know that he would work out a way to get through the wall?  And it doesn't make sense for the skull to be there right at the beginning. 

So I'm going round in circles, but I'm still leaning towards the last explanation (clues set up the first time), because some the building was so sparse and every item (except perhaps the food and crockery - I wasn't sure about that, even though they seem to prompt a revalation from the Doctor) appeared to be a deliberately placed clue.

Also, if this was the confession dial, does that mean that it was empty when it was given to Missy? Was the confession dial always a trick to get confessions out of him and never a testament? I don't get it, but maybe it'll become clearer.

I don't know.  I also wonder if he knew what it was.  It's still interesting that it's so personal to him.  Again, almost makes me think that he must have set it up, or somebody almost got into his mind.    Maybe that's just how they do will and testaments in Gallifrey? Yes, I hope it's explained tonight!

Did anyone else also see the transition from Capaldi's face to the skull? Big creepy clue but of course I missed its significance. I'm thinking that maybe the skull was modelled after his face.

Yes, I saw it and thought it was a clever touch.  And then later, I read that .. you're right!  It really was modelled after his face!   They took a cast of his face, apparently, and made a skull from that.  So an even cleverer touch than I originally thought!
 

I didn't actually think he'd remember. Because technically, it's not really 'him', is it? Liberty, why did you think he remembered it?

Well, my son and I talked about this, and I became convinced that he didn't remember, just worked it out ever time.   How could he remember?  But watching the second time, he's really clear about remembering, and that's why he's so distressed, remembering that day and half dying crawl and realising that he has to do it all again for millions of years.   It's really clear, and repeated, and I think I just dismissed it because it didn't make sense.  

Some things I didn't get: why did he tell the dial that he was the hybrid? And how did Gallifrey come back, I thought it'd disappeared. Any thoughts?

I didn't think it mattered what he said once the dial was closed (but I'm just guessing!).  And my understanding was that Gallifrey existed on a different plane - it's not clear how he finally managed to get to it. 

About films with a similar plotline, I also think I'd seen this before. There's a Startrek episode that is like that and also I vaguely remember that the film Run Lola Run did something like that. 

Run Lola Run was great!   Can you remember the name of the Star Trek episode - I'd love to watch that!  (I no doubt have seen it and forgotten it!). 

We seem to post the same things, Liberty

Lol, yep, see my post #996

Liberty wrote:

 One answer is that there were no clues the first time (no, muddy spade, clothes, obviously no skull or "bird", no "I am in 12", etc.).  And so, either the Doctor managed to do what he did without the clues the first time, or he failed.   The trouble with him failing is that he wouldn't have burned himself up to fuel his return, so wouldn't have returned ... or would he?

No, not necessarily, that was what I was trying to say. The only piece of understanding he needed to keep the cycle going was that he could revive a copy of himself with the transporter. He didn't need any of the clues for that so he could have worked it out the first time. 

The other element of this puzzle that I worked out this night is that the rooms don't reset themselves to their original position, they reset themselves to the condition the Doctor arrived in. An important difference! That's how he is able to make changes, leave clues and make the wall incrementally weaker. 

The changes he leaves at first would probable be more random, steering his next incarnations in all kinds of directions until he works out he has to die in order to escape. Maybe in an earlier version, he goes away after discovering the wall and buries the stone. 

We only meet him when all the clues are already in place, shaped over millions of years, very much like evolution. 

An alternative is that the clues were there right at the beginning.  This was designed by somebody who knew how the Doctor's mind worked, and it was always meant to lead him round to bringing himself back, in a neverending cycle.  Either it was set up by he, himself, without his knowledge (yes, I'm clutching at straws!), or it was set up by somebody else who knew how he would react and wanted him to bring himself back rather than die - again, interrogators don't want to lose their prisoner.    He was meant to keep going round until one time, whether it was the first time or another time, he realised he was trapped at the wall and confessed.

But then, wouldn't whoever knew him well, know that he would work out a way to get through the wall?  And it doesn't make sense for the skull to be there right at the beginning.

I think the designer only put the castle and the veil there and relied on his survival instinct that he would confess rather than die. It's not in their interest that he worked out that he could survive the veil, or worked his way through the wall. I think the clues all came from previous versions of the Doctor. 

Liberty wrote:

And then later, I read that .. you're right!  It really was modelled after his face!   They took a cast of his face, apparently, and made a skull from that. 

OMG, I can't believe I recognised that. Apparently I have a creepy skill. 
 

Liberty wrote:

But watching the second time, he's really clear about remembering, and that's why he's so distressed, remembering that day and half dying crawl and realising that he has to do it all again for millions of years.   It's really clear, and repeated, and I think I just dismissed it because it didn't make sense.  

Yeah, but that's the problem: it doesn't make any sense. Why would he need the clues? And he's a copy, so for him it's really the first time. How could he remember if he never experienced it? I think those references you mention are not because he remembers it but because he's worked out his situation. Maybe he has some vague deja vu feelings, but certainly no full episodic memory. 

I didn't think it mattered what he said once the dial was closed (but I'm just guessing!).  And my understanding was that Gallifrey existed on a different plane - it's not clear how he finally managed to get to it. 

Yeah, I think I agree. First I didn't understand why he went through all that trouble not confessing and after he was freed, confessed nonetheless, so I thought the last confession might be a lie. However it's also possible that he just wanted to wait until he was free. 

I don't think everything is as it seems here, although I do really  like this twist. 

 Run Lola Run was great!   Can you remember the name of the Star Trek episode - I'd love to watch that!  (I no doubt have seen it and forgotten it!). 

It's called 'Cause and Effect. It's episode 18, series 5 of TGN. If you like that, you may also like 'Frame of Mind', episode 21, series 6, TGN. They're pretty much my favorite episodes. 

Or you were reminded of a film with a slightly different premise, like Memento or anything Christopher Nolan created. 

I also remember that there was once a videoclip with the same premise: a guy living the same day over and over again, but I reallly don't remember the artist.