Liberty wrote:

Spoiler » Rigsy was the guy from Flatline: the graffitti artist.  I knew that because I read that he was going to be in the episode before I saw it!    I have to admit, he didn't make a huge impression on me in Flatline. 

I think that Me had a contract with Them (whoever they are) to provide a death: she got to choose Rigsy.  Once Rigsy passed on the tattoo and Clara accepted it, Me was no longer needed, or party to the contract.  (She could have removed the tattoo from Rigsy, but not Clara, because she didn't put it there).   And the tattoo couldn't be passed on again, or passed back.  It didn't matter about the murder - that was just something Me used to choose a death, but They didn't care why the person was chosen.  I know, it all just seemed very convenient that the "rules" seemed to be arranged just so that Clara would die, and it didn't make sense to me.  

I also thought that there was no reason for her to take the tattoo from Rigsy so early - why not wait and see what could be done first?  (Although I suppose she was trying to do it while the doctor was out of the way).  

I kept thinking that it was odd that Ashildr seemed to have speical powers, when she was really just a very old, self-repairing human.   But I suppose that was a clue.   She didn't really have any power, apart from being allowed, through the contract, to choose a criminal as a victim.

 
Yep, I knew who Rigsy was, already… that's what I meant with my (unspecific) mention of his 'debut episode' he met Clara in.  I meant the part about not knowing of any connection of him to Danny, and how that 'wrapped up' that loose end?

And yes, Ashildr's 'contract', thanks.  Caught most of that related to the Doctor and that Clara somehow 'bumped' her out, but wasn't sure why it couldn't be fixed.  So, okay.   Yeah, and a little convenient, huh?     Eh, well.   But she only really had 'special' powers because of that… what did the Doctor call it… device she was somehow entrusted with or acquired to take charge of the peace of the Street.  But still… not a bad episode!

I completely missed that too.

I know!  But that was kinda my point… I densely don't remember them mentioning any connection at all, to make it 'obvious' (for those of us who still remember that loose end, anyway…)     I did find it kind of interesting/neat the Doctor's point of calling the baby 'brilliant', and whether Clara had that in mind or just nobly saving a friend who's a dad, I don't know, but kind of another one of their offhand 'this is cool to throw in but then we forgot about it' type things.  Eh.
Just wonder if the people wanting their hands on him have anything to do with Gallifrey… can't wait!
(and whether they'll show an interesting reaction to when he gets back to the TARDIS!)

Well that episode (Heaven Sent) definitely had me in tears 

Very emotional!!  I couldn't see where it was going until it went there and then it made sense what he had to do to escape that place. Wow! 

There were times, too, when the grief and loss felt by the Doctor (along with the inner communication with his 'best friend' to help him solve the problem) seemed like it could have been John after Sherlock's fall if Moffat had given free rein to it in a Sherlock script instead of Dr. Who.  There was a lot of fan fiction after TRF that showed John locked in a 'castle of grief'.

This DW episode is going to stick with me for a long time.

I've only just caught up with this episode today and I thought it was outstanding!  It was good to see full use being made of Peter Capaldi, who was fantastic (I can't imagine Matt Smith, for instance, in that episode - not a criticism of him, but a very different kind of Doctor).   This is possibly the best of the series, for me. 

It kept niggling me, though, that it reminded me of something.   There were lots of things that definitely did remind me of things - the music (LOVED the music!) felt like Beethoven's 7th (and so reminded me of the Beethoven bootstrap paradox!), the shadow hand reminded me of Nosferatu, the skull of Hamlet, the castle reminded me of the BBC adaptation of Ghormenghast (gothic fantasy), the moving walls reminded me of Maze Runner (yes, I know, not the most highbrow), the Doctor's tardis scenes reminded me of Sherlock's mind palace, etc.  But the whole thing reminded me of something else, I don't know what.  Very deja vu.   I loved the feel of it, the lighting and the music, the clues along the way, and the ending.

I'm now only worried that the next episode will be a let down after this one!   And also really, really worried that Capaldi will leave after the next series.  He will be incredibly hard to replace.

Liberty, I had the same sort of feeling I think... I definitely felt the similarities with Sherlock's mind palace. The moving walls reminded me of an app/game called Monument Valley (check it out, it's a work of art). The idea of the Grimm fairytale and what the Doctor had to do to escape reminded me of something else too, but I have no idea what. It was such a heartbreaking montage at the end there, and I am desperate for the next episode although I don't want the series to end!

Spoiler » I can't claim to have thought of this myself (wish I had), but I've been having a look around on the internet and the word on the web is that "me" at the end may refer to "Me" i.e. Me/Ashildr is the hybrid.  Now this makes sense in a poetic way, because the Doctor's dark secret and sin is that he created the hybrid.    And it also explains a couple of points in the writing for me: why they made the Doctor chose to save one person out of so many over the course of time (I know there was a sort of explanation given, but it didn't quite wash), and why they made Ashildr change her name to "Me" (which again had a sort of explanation).   It was needed for that pun at the end of the last episode.  Why call her that, if not to use the name in some way?

I don't like the idea of tricking us that way, and setting it up like that, but I have to say, it does fit very well.  Me is the hybrid who will conquer Gallifrey and stand in its ruins, and the Doctor will be the saviour and be redeemed?  What do you think?    

So am I the only one who had this thought? Surely not!

Spoiler »The first time the Doctor jumped out the window, climbed out of the water and left his clothes to dry in front of the fire... for the clothes to still be there for him the next time, he would have had to have left them behind while he wandered around solving the puzzle of the diamond wall etc. In other words, he was in his underwear when he pulled the lever on the teleporter... but I'm sure we're not meant to think of these things!

But I still haven't worked out if it was the Doctor who buried the stone, or someone else? I'm confused, because everything is supposed to have reset itself. If the Doctor wrote "I am in 12" and buried the stone, how is it still there? and the word "bird" is still there. But then again, he is able to chip away at the wall, so not everything goes back to its original state.

Last edited by ukaunz (December 1, 2015 6:51 am)

Spoiler » The other thing that doesn't reset is his skull: the rest of his body disintegrates and the skull is left (still attached to those electrode things).  The clothes: I think it's possible that the very first time he walked about naked and still made it to the wall without that particular clue.  And he didn't take the spade with him, because he never realised what he had to until the end, when the Veil was blocking his exit.  But yes, certain things not resetting suggested to me that it was set up as a puzzle/trial/test rather than an interrogation - or maybe both.   And of course, it all takes place in his own confession dial, which means ... what?  That he set it up?  I've been going round in circles with it.  I love your idea, Russell, that the point was to break down the barrier to Gallifrey.

(I also thought the punching the wall at shoulder height wouldn't create a person-sized passage, but I'll just assume that at other times he kicked, punched above head height, etc, even though that would have been a waste of time!)

I suppose the thing that bothers me most is that he had to go through the sequence the very first time: understanding what he had to do, getting back upstairs, and using his energy to make himself reappear.  If he hadn't done that the first time, then that would have been the end of him ... but perhaps not. That time, there would have been no skull, no "bird", etc.  So it looks like he didn't need the clues anyway.  (And I suppose the castle wasn't real either, although maybe the sky was real?)

Really good points about Me, Russell.  Although I think that the Doctor might use "Me" to describe the evil side of Ashildr.  However, the confession dial existed before he met Ashildr, so how could the confession about the hybrid be built into it, if Me is the hybrid?  I'm not very big on the lore, but I do know that Doctor apparently had a human mother in the McGann film, so could be a hybrid.   Were the Timelords supposed to be a warlike race, though?  I still keep thinking, why call Me "Me", if not to give us that cliffhanger?    Me will be billions of years old: if she was getting pissed off after a few hundred years, then possibly she could be quite dangerous after a few more!   Except that she didn't have any superpowers and even the alien race that made her a hybrid (can't remember their name) weren't particularly scary. 

I'm even more confused about how the confession dial works now, because it looks as if the Doctor has to be in it to get the confession, and even then it's not guaranteed ... so what's the point of it as a last will and testament after his death?  Actually, I'm confused because confessions and wills are two such different things!   He gave it to Missy at the beginning, at least we think he did - why?  Is it because she would keep it secret, or because she would use it after his death, or what? Because she's a timelord?  If "they" put him in the dial, and if his death would unveil the confession, then wouldn't it be simpler to kill him? 

I've been assuming "they" are the timelords, but maybe that's too obvious? 

Last edited by Liberty (December 1, 2015 9:30 am)