BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Harriet · October 10, 2015 6:57 pm

Agree

RavenMorganLeigh · October 13, 2015 12:39 am

Zatoichi wrote:
Yes, a few nice ghosts who actually care about the awful deeds she apparently has done in the past would be welcome to me - as her present companions seem to have chosen blissful ignorance instead. And condemned us to share it .. I hate not knowing. How can one choose to forgive and forget without actually knowing what to forgive and forget? Unconditional love I do not feel towards her, I want some facts about whom she hurt and what she did with what motives. And I want Sherlock Holmes of all people to care about facts too, not about wishy-washy sentimental things like married bliss and happy families and "I just like her so much and she saved my life - mixed messages I grant you". And I want John Watson to really be honorable and upright and not staying married to a potential murderer just because Sherlock said so and his parents are so nice together and he chose her and it´s what he likes after all.. so in the fire with evidence that could make him not love her anymore.. *argh*

Brava!!!!!

nakahara · October 22, 2015 1:19 pm

This is an interesting question. I would like to hear some answers too:

http://beejohnlocked.tumblr.com/post/131627350541/was-it-surgery-or-not-i-want-a-pro-mary

SusiGo · October 22, 2015 1:47 pm

Sorry for not being able to give a pro-Mary answer.

From the beginning I have had serious problems with the word "surgery".

This is the definition by the Cambridge Dictionary:

the treatment of injuries or diseases in people or animals by cutting open the body and removing or repairing the damaged part

Medicinenet.com:

Surgery: The branch of medicine that employs operations in the treatment of disease or injury. Surgery can involve cutting, abrading, suturing, or otherwise physically changing body tissues and organs.

Merriam-Webster:

medical treatment in which a doctor cuts into someone's body in order to repair or remove damaged or diseased parts ( chiefly US )

These definitions do not make any sense in our situation. Mary "treats" someone who is neither injured nor damaged or suffers from a disease. So therefore I am really at a loss why they used this term at all. IMO it is completely pointless to even use a medical term here. You might call her doings "stalling for time" or "shutting down her opponent" or whatever, but surgery is quite ridiculous if you ask me.

nakahara · October 22, 2015 2:15 pm

Sherlock´s cool heart became "defective" when emotions entered it... Mary "repaired" it by cutting it and making it bitter again....

SusiGo · October 22, 2015 2:19 pm

Nooooo!

tonnaree · October 22, 2015 2:24 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Sorry for not being able to give a pro-Mary answer.

From the beginning I have had serious problems with the word "surgery".

This is the definition by the Cambridge Dictionary:

the treatment of injuries or diseases in people or animals by cutting open the body and removing or repairing the damaged part

Medicinenet.com:

Surgery: The branch of medicine that employs operations in the treatment of disease or injury. Surgery can involve cutting, abrading, suturing, or otherwise physically changing body tissues and organs.

Merriam-Webster:

medical treatment in which a doctor cuts into someone's body in order to repair or remove damaged or diseased parts ( chiefly US )

These definitions do not make any sense in our situation. Mary "treats" someone who is neither injured nor damaged or suffers from a disease. So therefore I am really at a loss why they used this term at all. IMO it is completely pointless to even use a medical term here. You might call her doings "stalling for time" or "shutting down her opponent" or whatever, but surgery is quite ridiculous if you ask me.

I don't know if this helps Susi, but in English "surgery" is often used as a sort of slang to define anything as "done wtih extreme skill." Such as, Watching that chef carve meat is like watching surgery.

SusiGo · October 22, 2015 2:28 pm

Oh, thank you, I did not know that. In German we have the expression that someone is doing something with "surgical precision".
So this would mean what? That Mary is extremely skilled in nearly killing people?

Magingus · October 22, 2015 2:35 pm

Yes, I believe "precision" was where that choice of words came from.

Schmiezi · October 23, 2015 5:35 am

But could someone who sees Mary (a lot) more positive than me answer the initial question:

How exactly did Mary benefit from shooting Sherlock first place? It bought her some time, yes - time she didn't use at all. She did nothing until Sherlock revealed her to John,except threatening Sherlock in hospital. So why shooting him???

Last edited by Schmiezi (October 23, 2015 5:36 am)

besleybean · October 23, 2015 5:41 am

It's very possible I am missing the blindingly obvious...but I thought the time she needed was to threaten Sherlock.
I don't tknow the exact timings, but it semed very quick until Sherlock go tot her...
So she hadn't had time to have another go at CAM.
Maybe she didn't expect Sherlock to rise from his hospital bed, quite so quickly...

Schmiezi · October 23, 2015 5:49 am

She shot him so she could threaten him later? Why not threaten himinstantly instead of shooting?

(And btw, it was not the most sophisticated threat. Did she really need to shoot Sherlock so she can think for days only to come up with "Don't tell John?")

besleybean · October 23, 2015 5:56 am

I don't think Mary expected Sherlock and John to stumble in, so that changed everything.
She couldn't murder CAM as John would be a suspect.
I think sentiment got the better of her with Sherlock, possibly she panicked(maybe even trianed killers do this)and all she could think was to buy time...but then everything else happened too quickly.

mrshouse · October 23, 2015 6:06 am

Did she seem truly panicking to you, bb? Because that's not what I see at all. She seems quite cool, to say the least. Apart from the little "I'm sorry" speech, which is very thin to be used in her favor considering HLV as a whole.

besleybean · October 23, 2015 6:11 am

Without further data, I have little more to add.
I am taking the scenario as it has been presented to us, assuming we are to get more info on Mary.
She and Sherlock are genuinely fond of each other, I believe she loves John, unless I am shown any different...
A trained killer would be trained not to show panic, even if she felt it.

Last edited by besleybean (October 23, 2015 6:12 am)

mrshouse · October 23, 2015 6:14 am

Well, that's what I do, too, taking it as it's presented. And she doesn't panic.

Liberty · October 23, 2015 6:53 am

She did threaten him on the spot but it didn't work (he didn't believe her). Her aim was to incapacitate him and buy time - her (vaguer) threat at the hospital had much more weight after she had shot him. We don't get to find out what she planned to do in the long term, how she planned to negotiate with Sherlock, but I presume that was what she was going to try to do. There wasn't time to do it in Magnussen's office, especially when Sherlock didn't respond to the threat.

There was no real advantage for Mary to leaving Sherlock alive over kiling him. It would have been much safer for her to kill both him and Magnussen. In fact she was putting herself at risk (from Magnussen) by leaving him alive. We know she was comfortable with kiling, so I think the reason for her not doing so must have been her feelings for Sherlock.

However, there was a big advantage to Mary shooting Sherlock (even if she left him alive) over not doing so. If she had left him alive, and John had walked in, then she could possibly not only have lost John, and John been devastated, but she'd have gone to prison for the rest of her life if John and Sherlock had wanted to turn her in (Magnussen preferred to have her in his power rather than handing her in to the police, but she'd still be under threat from him).

Schmiezi · October 23, 2015 7:40 am

So you are assuming selfish reasons?

Liberty · October 23, 2015 8:16 am

Yes, I'd thought your question was about how Mary would benefit?

Last edited by Liberty (October 23, 2015 8:20 am)

Schmiezi · October 23, 2015 9:01 am

Liberty wrote:
Yes, I'd thought your question was about how Mary would benefit?

Yes, and thank you for your answer.

To me, it sums up like this: Mary shot Sherlock to keep herself safe. Sherlock shot Magnussen to keep John safe.

Forgive mr if I prefer Johnlock and not the happy Watsons.