BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

RavenMorganLeigh · October 7, 2015 7:03 am

Liberty wrote:
True, but I think what we see is just what's going through his head. I don't believe, for instance, that Mrs Hudson's one and only pressure point is marijuana. (Mycroft isn't a pressure point for Sherlock either, but I like to think that he would be, as much as Harry is for John).

That's actually something I've been ruminating on... the "animosity" between Sherlock and Mycroft. I mean, they had to know that if it were known that they were close-- or each other's pressure points-- they'd both be targets-- used against each other on a regular basis. I get the feeling, that at least for Mycroft "Your loss would break my heart" Holmes-- having Sherlock present as Mycroft-Despising is probably a relief.

The scenes in TEH made me think that they are probably closer than they let on-- and probably a lot of that is to prevent being used against each other. So-- in the end, if it came down to it, I think Mycroft would very much be a pressure point for Sherlock.

Also: Pressure point-- that's something that you could blackmail someone over. So, Mrs. Hudson not having anything other than the weed fits. She's evidently not ashamed of her rather colorful past. I mean, it's on Youtube!

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 7, 2015 7:08 am)

Dorothy83 · October 7, 2015 9:13 am

But he only listed 1 pressure point for everybody but Sherlock, right? So what I think is that yes, he only listed the most relevant pressure point for himself about each person (the one he would use against that person) - for Sherlock, he had a longer list because, like he said, it's difficult to find a pressure point for him - hence he considered a few 'weak spots' from what he knew about him (Moriarty is a pressure point in Sherlock's list, I really don't think Sherlock wants to protect him, right? ) and eventually narrowed it down to John Watson when he realised he was Sherlock's real pressure point.

Vhanja · October 7, 2015 2:43 pm

Concerning whether or not Mary shot with the intent to kill or not, I found this interesting little meta:

http://johnlockfanfiction.tumblr.com/post/130628270454/a-thought-occured-to-me

It raises a good point. The question is whether we can trust the "murdered" line to represent Sherlock's own belief, or if it's a writer-thing with the main intent of creating more tension and get another stab in from Mycroft to Sherlock.

SusiGo · October 7, 2015 3:03 pm

Very good meta. And I think so far the audience has had every eason to believe what goes on in Sherlock's mind palace. In HoB his mind palace worked excellently. Mind palace Mycroft in TSoT helped him solve the Mayfly Man case. And as the meta says, in the scenes with John and Mary he is not alone and might be pretending for some reason or other. Therefore I would agree that in the mind palace we get Sherlock's immediate thoughts and not something filtered through the presence of other people or a plan or worry for John or fear or whatever.

And another point: if what MP Molly and MP Anderson say is true, why not what MP Mycroft says? We have to assume that all the "expert" statements in the mind palace sequence are true, so why should Mycroft's be false?

Last edited by SusiGo (October 7, 2015 3:05 pm)

silverblaze · October 7, 2015 3:37 pm

I think the mind palace characters are representations of Sherlock's thoughts. So obviously Mycroft is a very critical internal voice, probably modelled on the real one. So they can be wrong if Sherlock is wrong.

It's not really what a real mind palace is, is it? A real mind palace is more like a memory trick in which you use spaces and objects.

Magingus · October 7, 2015 4:06 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Concerning whether or not Mary shot with the intent to kill or not, I found this interesting little meta:

http://johnlockfanfiction.tumblr.com/post/130628270454/a-thought-occured-to-me

It raises a good point. The question is whether we can trust the "murdered" line to represent Sherlock's own belief, or if it's a writer-thing with the main intent of creating more tension and get another stab in from Mycroft to Sherlock.

When it comes to ambiguous events, I usually try to remain open-minded. However, I am convinced that Mary shot to kill.

That meta provides a good argument, about Sherlock considering it murder in his own head (despite what he says when John and Mary are around).

Here is an even more convincing argument ... Sherlock died.

He managed to pull through and survive, but only through an almost inhumanly quick and thorough analysis of his situation during the span of three seconds (and the emotional strength of his care for John).

If Mary did not intended to kill Sherlock, she (being such a crack shot) could have shot him somewhere less fatal. Even a shot to the shoulder would have kept him alive, but out of commission for a while.

--------------------------------

The only counter-argument to this I've ever heard was, "If she really wanted Sherlock dead, why not just shoot him in the head?"

The best explanation I've heard was that, if she killed Sherlock immediately, John would come after the shooter. If she mortally wounded him however, John would remain with him to try to care for him.

Dorothy83 · October 7, 2015 4:11 pm

She shot him with the intention to incapacitate him = make sure he couldn't speak. Therefore, shooting him in the leg/arm/shoulder wouldn't have worked; she needed a place that was going to knock him out, but not kill him (John wouldn't have found her even if he had gone after her, had Sherlock died - he didn't know where to look!). If she had wanted to kill him (slowly), why call the ambulance??

This said, the fact that she didn't shoot to kill doesn't mean she cares about him - Sherlock can talk about 'sentiment' all he wants but the truth it that Mary made the decision to risk killing him in order to save her own arse, and to me that means that he isn't *that* important to her.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 7, 2015 4:13 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Very good meta. And I think so far the audience has had every eason to believe what goes on in Sherlock's mind palace. In HoB his mind palace worked excellently. Mind palace Mycroft in TSoT helped him solve the Mayfly Man case. And as the meta says, in the scenes with John and Mary he is not alone and might be pretending for some reason or other. Therefore I would agree that in the mind palace we get Sherlock's immediate thoughts and not something filtered through the presence of other people or a plan or worry for John or fear or whatever.

And another point: if what MP Molly and MP Anderson say is true, why not what MP Mycroft says? We have to assume that all the "expert" statements in the mind palace sequence are true, so why should Mycroft's be false?

I agree. And I think they spent an awful amount of time and effort to make sure that we knew Sherlock had been murdered by using the mind palace sequence to illustrate that. And what really drives it home is when Sherlock flatlines.

I think what happens is selective readings of the scene-- maybe some don't wish to take MP Mycroft's statement as true because it conflicts with the idea of Mary "not really meaning it".

RavenMorganLeigh · October 7, 2015 4:15 pm

Magingus wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
Concerning whether or not Mary shot with the intent to kill or not, I found this interesting little meta:

http://johnlockfanfiction.tumblr.com/post/130628270454/a-thought-occured-to-me

It raises a good point. The question is whether we can trust the "murdered" line to represent Sherlock's own belief, or if it's a writer-thing with the main intent of creating more tension and get another stab in from Mycroft to Sherlock.
When it comes to ambiguous events, I usually try to remain open-minded. However, I am convinced that Mary shot to kill.

That meta provides a good argument, about Sherlock considering it murder in his own head (despite what he says when John and Mary are around).

Here is an even more convincing argument ... Sherlock died.

He managed to pull through and survive, but only through an almost inhumanly quick and thorough analysis of his situation during the span of three seconds (and the emotional strength of his care for John).

If Mary did not intended to kill Sherlock, she (being such a crack shot) could have shot him somewhere less fatal. Even a shot to the shoulder would have kept him alive, but out of commission for a while.

--------------------------------

The only counter-argument to this I've ever heard was, "If she really wanted Sherlock dead, why not just shoot him in the head?"

The best explanation I've heard was that, if she killed Sherlock immediately, John would come after the shooter. If she mortally wounded him however, John would remain with him to try to care for him.

Actually, the reason Mary didn't shoot Sherlock in the head is because that would have been the end of the show, period.

Magingus · October 7, 2015 4:21 pm

Dorothy83 wrote:
She shot him with the intention to incapacitate him = make sure he couldn't speak. Therefore, shooting him in the leg/arm/shoulder wouldn't have worked; she needed a place that was going to knock him out, but not kill him

But ... she did kill him! He only pulled through because of his uncanny knowledge, speed of thought, and strength of will!

Dorothy83 wrote:
If she had wanted to kill him (slowly), why call the ambulance??

We don't know that she called the ambulance - this was just what Sherlock said in front of Mary and John.

John also called the ambulance, remember.

And some people speculate that Magnussen may have even called for help himself...
http://archiveofourown.org/works/1264204/chapters/2608774

Magingus · October 7, 2015 4:22 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Magingus wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
Concerning whether or not Mary shot with the intent to kill or not, I found this interesting little meta:

http://johnlockfanfiction.tumblr.com/post/130628270454/a-thought-occured-to-me

It raises a good point. The question is whether we can trust the "murdered" line to represent Sherlock's own belief, or if it's a writer-thing with the main intent of creating more tension and get another stab in from Mycroft to Sherlock.
When it comes to ambiguous events, I usually try to remain open-minded. However, I am convinced that Mary shot to kill.

That meta provides a good argument, about Sherlock considering it murder in his own head (despite what he says when John and Mary are around).

Here is an even more convincing argument ... Sherlock died.

He managed to pull through and survive, but only through an almost inhumanly quick and thorough analysis of his situation during the span of three seconds (and the emotional strength of his care for John).

If Mary did not intended to kill Sherlock, she (being such a crack shot) could have shot him somewhere less fatal. Even a shot to the shoulder would have kept him alive, but out of commission for a while.

--------------------------------

The only counter-argument to this I've ever heard was, "If she really wanted Sherlock dead, why not just shoot him in the head?"

The best explanation I've heard was that, if she killed Sherlock immediately, John would come after the shooter. If she mortally wounded him however, John would remain with him to try to care for him.

Actually, the reason Mary didn't shoot Sherlock in the head is because that would have been the end of the show, period.

Yeah, that too

Dorothy83 · October 7, 2015 4:32 pm

Magingus wrote:
Dorothy83 wrote:
She shot him with the intention to incapacitate him = make sure he couldn't speak. Therefore, shooting him in the leg/arm/shoulder wouldn't have worked; she needed a place that was going to knock him out, but not kill him
But ... she did kill him! He only pulled through because of his uncanny knowledge, speed of thought, and strength of will!

She might have killed him, but what I'm saying is, that wasn't her intention. I did say though that she was willing to risk him dying, and that is just as bad as wanting to kill him, IMO.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 7, 2015 4:35 pm

Actually, it occurred to me that we can more readily trust what Sherlock "says" , even via Mind Palace characters, more reliably than we can trust his words in "real life"-- and that's borne out by the show Canon.

Magingus · October 7, 2015 4:51 pm

Dorothy83 wrote:
Magingus wrote:
Dorothy83 wrote:
She shot him with the intention to incapacitate him = make sure he couldn't speak. Therefore, shooting him in the leg/arm/shoulder wouldn't have worked; she needed a place that was going to knock him out, but not kill him
But ... she did kill him! He only pulled through because of his uncanny knowledge, speed of thought, and strength of will!
She might have killed him, but what I'm saying is, that wasn't her intention. I did say though that she was willing to risk him dying, and that is just as bad as wanting to kill him, IMO.

Now you've got my wheels turning.

If she, as you say, intended to "knock him out" to make sure he wouldn't speak at that time, what would prevent him from mentioning it later? And the obvious answer; when she threatened him in the hospital. Hmm.

I'm considering your view and the prospects seem interesting.

I might re-shape this piece of the puzzle in my mind and seeing how it fits in the whole scenario.

Another reason for my original opinion, though, was how readily "quick-draw" Mary pulled out her gun in Leinster Gardens.

More stuff to consider!

Magingus · October 7, 2015 4:52 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Actually, it occurred to me that we can more readily trust what Sherlock "says" , even via Mind Palace characters, more reliably than we can trust his words in "real life"-- and that's borne out by the show Canon.

This is a very good point, and well established IMO.

Liberty · October 7, 2015 5:38 pm

My feeling about the mind palace is that it's not necessarily some external truth, but it's what Sherlock's discovering in his mind at that time. Mary said she would kill him, then she shot him in the chest and he feells he's about to die - so yes, as far as he knows, he has been murdered. I think that's what he believes in that moment. It's only later, in the hospital, that he becomes well enough to do his deductions and ask himself questions like "Why didn't Mary shoot me in the head?", or "Why did the ambulance arrive early?". He puts all the pieces together and come to a different conclusion.

The fact that only just survived, I originally thought pointed to Mary intending to kill him. One big reason why I now think that's not the case is that it would mean going over the same event and the same deduction in S4. I felt the ending of S2 was skimmed over in S3 and if that's an indicator, then we're not going to get an investigation of what "really" happened with Mary in Magnussen's office. Sherlock's deduction is THE deduction for that event.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 7, 2015 5:54 pm

This photoset from the Making of Sherlock might interest all of you. It's showing Mary in the hospital -- frantically on her way to meet John. Now, I looked at this-- and I think she looks panicked. Is she panicked because she expected Sherlock to have expired by now? Is she freaked out that he might have told John her secret? Somehow (when you take the threatening-by-the-bedside scene into account) I don't think she was worried about how badly she'd injured Sherlock!

Enjoy.

https://www.tumblr.com/search/Behind+the+Scenes+pics+%E2%80%98His+Last+Vow%E2%80%99+-+Mary+%26+John+at+the+hospital+-+

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 7, 2015 6:07 pm)

Vhanja · October 7, 2015 6:33 pm

Liberty wrote:
My feeling about the mind palace is that it's not necessarily some external truth, but it's what Sherlock's discovering in his mind at that time. Mary said she would kill him, then she shot him in the chest and he feells he's about to die - so yes, as far as he knows, he has been murdered. I think that's what he believes in that moment. It's only later, in the hospital, that he becomes well enough to do his deductions and ask himself questions like "Why didn't Mary shoot me in the head?", or "Why did the ambulance arrive early?". He puts all the pieces together and come to a different conclusion.

The fact that only just survived, I originally thought pointed to Mary intending to kill him. One big reason why I now think that's not the case is that it would mean going over the same event and the same deduction in S4. I felt the ending of S2 was skimmed over in S3 and if that's an indicator, then we're not going to get an investigation of what "really" happened with Mary in Magnussen's office. Sherlock's deduction is THE deduction for that event.

That is also a good point. He believed she shot to kill at the time (why wouldn't he?), but he could have changed his mind afterwards.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 7, 2015 7:00 pm

So, what I'm hearing is that when it pertains to whether Mary meant to kill Sherlock, Sherlock's Mind Palace suddenly isn't reliable. It's suspect. Not to be entirely trusted. Which means (to me, anyway-- following this logic) that every time we've ever seen Sherlock use what he had filed away in in Mind Palace is also suspect. The Mind Palace is Sherlock's "superpower". Invalidate that, and we invalidate the whole show, and he really is-- well, kind of a fake, charlatan or, simply suffering from Delusions of Totall Recall.

If the Mind Palace no longer means that we're dealing with facts- clear, truthful memories stored away, etc, . then what good is it?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 7, 2015 7:01 pm)

Magingus · October 7, 2015 7:03 pm

I think what people are arguing is that the mind palace scene shows what Sherlock believed to be happening at the time - but he later reformed his opinion based on new facts.

I'm not sure I believe this myself, but I think that's what some people here are saying.