I'm trying to see where I land on the "does Mary love John" posts above.

A clear definition of terms is very important in a discussion.  I've seen people argue when the actually agree, or argue two completely separate points, just because they were not using the same definition of terms.

Unfortunately, "love" is not an easily defined term.  In fact, each person has their own personal definition based on their outlook and experiences.

That being said, I tend to agree with Vhanja and tonnaree here - it is quite possible for Mary to love John, albeit in a possessive and unhealthy way.

And while I don't think this is really the case, it is possible that Mary really doesn't love John, but needs to remain with him for reasons of her own well-being, which might explain her coldness towards him at the beginning of the cottage scene, and the relief when he accepts her back.

nakahara wrote:

John could have forgiven Mary for some reason of his own, it´s hard to tell with the incomplete information we have.

Ooh, good point.  It even could have been more for the baby than Mary herself.

nakahara wrote:

I rather believe he just wanted to appease Sherlock and to overpower his own anger in Baker Street by listening to Sherlock´s ludicrous story.

Another good point.

I'll have to re-watch that scene with these thoughts in mind.

You actually just put my mind onto an interesting, different track. Specifically, Mary's relationship with David.

We don't know much about their history; only that they stopped being together romantically but remained pretty close friends.

Did Mary feel this possessive about David? I think likely no, since it would appear that she broke it off with him (or it was possibly mutual). Based on Sherlock's observation of David's online behavior towards Mary, it would seem he is striving to remain close to her, which would make more sense if he were the one who was dumped by her. Perhaps Mary encouraging the friendship with a man she broke up with is another display of her controlling nature; she doesn't want to be with him romantically, but she still wants his attention.

Also, we don't know how deep their relationship was. If it didn't go much beyond casual dating, there's a chance David didn't really see that side of her all that much. In the first two episodes of S3, before she is John's wife, she appears pretty pleasant much of the time. But in HLV, we see less of this (obviously, I'm referring to the beginning of the episode *before* the stuff with CAM went down).

Perhaps now that she had her hooks sunk into him, she dropped the "nice girl" act. Perhaps some things happened between TSoT and HLV that caused her mood to change (CAM's strange telegram at the wedding may have been the start of much stress in her new life). Perhaps they are just experiencing what every couple goes through - after being together a while, frustrations about the other person are less hidden.

And what if, while all of her secrets were still hidden, John broke it off with her - just for any reason. Let's say he just met someone he liked better (I'm not saying this is a possibility, just setting up a scenario to analyze Mary's potential response). Would she still be that possessive?

Or is it possible that once he learned some of her past, she feared what he would do with that information if he despised her, and her only chance of making sure he wouldn't spill her secrets was to keep him as her husband (ensuring her safety through his loyalty)?

Too many threads, and not enough information to weave a meaningful explanation. But I guess that's why forums like this exist!
 

I would say the need to control is made evident by the fact that by not informing John of her past--partuclarly when not knowing could get him killed-- that was Mary taking away John's right to make informed consent. He never had the indormation about her past, and she went to great lengths (Shooting Sherlock!!! Going after Magnussen) to keep it buried. 

Think about it. If you get married, and the guy has HIV and deliberately keeps that knowledge from you, he's deprived you of a number of things-- you would have known that only safe sex would be appropriate, you'd know to get tested, if you wanted to risk it to have a child, you'd know what precaustions to take. Informed consent gives you choices. 

She took away John's abilty to make *any* choice, because she didn't want him to make , what for *her* was the "wrong" choice-- namely, leaving her. John didn't know anything, so he was flying blind. With a past like Mary's , that could be deadly: for her, John, *and* their unborn child. 

And that once again brings up the question: What could she possibly have done that was *so iredeemably awful* that John Watson, blogger and eternally put-upon-friend of Sherlock's, would not forgive??? That would make John stop loving Mary???? It has to be something absolutley horrific.  

 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 4, 2015 5:20 pm)

Liberty wrote:

I completely agree about people's right to know about something that will affect them (like HIV), and of course it was wrong of Mary to keep John in the dark.   But from her point of view, she was in a bit of a dilemma after (supposedly) going straight.    She couldn't just tell all her boyfriends - it would not only finish the relationships, but would put her at great risk and defeat the whole object of going incognito.  It seems to me like a witness protection programme.  She's supposed to live her life as that new person, telling no-one, forever.  (And when Magnussen knew and threatened her, she decided to bump him off, eliminating the person who could get to John through her).    The other option would have been to never have any relationships, never have a family and keep distant forever. 

And whether the truth is ideal, is a grey area.  I've had long conversations with friends about what you should do if you have an affair - is your duty to tell the truth, or is it to keep silent forever and protect your partner from the knowledge?  Probably most people will have a clear idea that one or the other is right, but it it is a bit wooly.  If you tell your partner, then they have to live with that knowledge forever, and struggle with trust and so on, when they could have lived happily with you for the next 50 years - why make it their problem, when it's your guilt?    What about something like gender reassigment?  Is there a duty to tell, or is it your secret to keep? 

 

But this is a bit more dire than an affair. There are people who are actively hunting her, who want her dead. She has the following information: John Watson used to run with Sherlock Holmes and they went up against Moriarty. Sherlock to her knowledge, LOST. But, this still makes John a person (being that he's also a veteran of the War in Afghanistan) a person who can handle danger, trauma, he's a good shot-- he thrives on danger. When Sherlock comes back, she sees that John is cacpable of forgiving something that most people would have trouble with. 

So, she has to know that John, though he might be angry for a while-- would indeed understand and forgive her-- unless what she did was truly, truly unforgivable. 

Yet, she doesn't tell him. Ever.  And here's the problem. She's pregnant. She now has family and friends, all of whom could very easily become collateral damage, if she's ever discovered. And, of course-- she was found out-- and she took actions designed to keep her secret hidden-- but, Magnussen said there were people- plural-- who were after her. There's more than just one threat. 

If, indeed-- it's just the "folly of love", she had no business ever becoming an asassin, because that's unbelievably short-sighted (pun intended) , and rather immature. She's nearly forty years old-- and yet, her behavior is like that of a teenager. 

This is beyond the scope of "relationship issues", because there are lives at stake. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 4, 2015 6:13 pm)

Actually-- all of this makes me wonder: how in the world does John's and Mary's relationship work???
I mean, does John just wilfully forget that Mary shot Sherlock? Try really hard not to ever think about Mary's past? Are certain subjects now off-limits? Do they have to play an elaborate game of "pretend everything is normal" in order to get along? How do you sleep with someone, be intimate with them-- when you realize that everything you knew about them is a lie, and you've decided to bury it, so now, you can't even ask? 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Actually-- all of this makes me wonder: how in the world does John's and Mary's relationship work???
I mean, does John just wilfully forget that Mary shot Sherlock? Try really hard not to ever think about Mary's past? Are certain subjects now off-limits? Do they have to play an elaborate game of "pretend everything is normal" in order to get along? How do you sleep with someone, be intimate with them-- when you realize that everything you knew about them is a lie, and you've decided to bury it, so now, you can't even ask? 

Very good point. This relationship is convoluted beyond belief and would never work in RL. It only functions because in Motiss world, such psychological absurdities are possible. But it looks weird´s once you look at the situation realistically.
 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Actually-- all of this makes me wonder: how in the world does John's and Mary's relationship work???
 

I don't think it does.   

tonnaree wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Actually-- all of this makes me wonder: how in the world does John's and Mary's relationship work???
 

I don't think it does.   

 
Me, either.