BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » The greatest friendship in fiction

Yitzock · October 1, 2015 5:54 pm

You've already said a lot so I don't know if what I'm going to say adds anything at all, but I think that the fact that Sherlock is willing to make a sacrifice in order to help John in HLV shows that they are close despite the proximity of living in the same place that has been lost, so I would agree that physical proximity was not most important in that. Besides, it's not like they hadn't seen each other in years, it was only a month, and they were still able to stay friends after Sherlock disappeared for an extended period of time.
So, we'll have to see what else comes their way to test their friendship, but hopefully see it grow stronger.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 1, 2015 6:20 pm

That sounds... painful-- at least s4, anyway. :-) I see where you're coming from-- and I'll think about it. Not entirely conviced that their freindship is stronger, but I'm willing to just try to go on faith. (Or alt least, I can accept that others have an opposing viewpoint.)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 1, 2015 6:21 pm)

Ah-chie · October 1, 2015 7:03 pm

RavenMorganLeigh: Well, I guess that is what this thread is all about... another point of view.

Yitzlock: I was thinking more about the form that the overall stories about their friendship have been taking and I wandered into the territory of bildungsroman and I see the similarities between that and the progression of the characters' relationships. It is kind of a journey of growth for both of them as it concerns forming a friendship and how they interact with the world.

We see them right from the start when they first get to know each other (mainly through John's eyes) and even though they have a natural affinity towards each other they still have to go through a bumpy period where each of their idiosyncrasies come to the forefront. It is a journey of sorts (like a bildungsroman) that shows he formation of these two personalities into more well rounded beings. Especially on the part of Sherlock. And although there isn't a conscious reaching out toward the more every-day community around him, there are connections made by him with the wider society in general (at least to a degree that he never imagined himself to be), such as becoming "best friends" with someone and being best man in a wedding party, etc.

I haven't fully thought it through as how this applies to John (I have to admit my main focus is on Sherlock) but I will give it some consideration.

Anyone else famiiar with this form of novel and can see any connections between it and the progression that is shown as it relates to the friendship of John and Sheerlock?

-Val

Liberty · October 1, 2015 7:08 pm

I think I'd like S4 to address the imbalance I see - Sherlock does a lot for John and makes huge sacrifices in S3, but John doesn't do nearly so much for him ... the love is there, but it's tending to be one-way traffic when it comes to demonstrating it. I could see S4 switching that around, and having John make the sacrifices.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 1, 2015 8:19 pm

Liberty wrote:
I think I'd like S4 to address the imbalance I see - Sherlock does a lot for John and makes huge sacrifices in S3, but John doesn't do nearly so much for him ... the love is there, but it's tending to be one-way traffic when it comes to demonstrating it. I could see S4 switching that around, and having John make the sacrifices.

Thanks, Liberty-- you expressed exactly what I was trying to get accross.

Yitzock · October 1, 2015 10:26 pm

I can kind of see what you mean there. From Reichenbach Fall onwards, it would seem that Sherlock does a lot of things for John. John does express the closeness he feels towards Sherlock (making him best man, etc.), but I'm not sure he does quite as much. It's hard to say, though, because isn't part of John's role to support Sherlock through the cases, to accompany him? He still does this throughout season 3, so in that way their relationship hasn't been any more one-sided.

Last edited by Yitzock (October 2, 2015 8:52 pm)

Ah-chie · October 1, 2015 10:50 pm

Aren't there ebbs and flows to every relationship, including friendships?

I feel a bit uncomfortable looking upon friendships like keeping scorecards, people don't "owe" someone sacrifices. And I think the recognition of a sacrifice is "worth" a lot as well, within the context of the feelings of the two participants in that friendship. The perdson who is the recipient of the acknowledgement can gain a huge benefit in value in the friendship.

Storywise, I can see the writers wanting to balance the score (when you look as one character being passive and the other being active) but it really doesn't equate to the value of the friendship per say, IMO.

As a viewer I can still see that John holds Sherlock in just as much value as a friend as Sherlock does for him without having to overtly see John rescue Sherlock (or some such situation). I mean, that could happen and it would be exciting to watch but it doesn't necessarily mean that now John actually is a better friend because of it. There are other ways of showing virtue as a friend. And for me the body language of John was quite clearly demonstating a true deep feeling for Sherlock - so I do think John is certainly clearly capable of showing (and has shown) his committment and respect he has for Sherlock as a friend many times over.

Edited for all the horrible typos I had in the original (God! I hate writing things up when you are rushing off to a hockey game!!!)

-Val

Last edited by Ah-chie (October 2, 2015 3:11 am)

RavenMorganLeigh · October 2, 2015 3:17 am

The problem is for me, I think-- okay. It's not exactly about keeping score-- but, the friendship seems increasingly one-sided. You ever have one of those friends that you're always there for, always available to listen to their problems, always ready to provide a distraction from the ex, always willing to make changes in your plans for them-- and your friend *rarely* does the same. They love you, and you're their bestie!- but, often when you need *them*, they have work, and their new boyfriend, and the kid, and etc,. etc,.
The thing is, we'll make excuses for that person because we love them (platonically!!!) and we don't want to say anything negative against them. If someone else points it out to us, we get defensive.

This is what I'm seeing in the Sherlock/John friendship.

Liberty · October 2, 2015 7:09 am

I think that over S3 John comes to understand more about what Sherlock means to him. But I do still see the imbalance, all the way through, culminating in the huge sacrifice in the end. Part of that is because John hasn't had the chance to make sacrifices or anything like that (I think that might come in S4), but he also hasn't done much in the way of smaller things.

John really struggles to forgive Sherlock (for something he did to save lives)in TEH. Sherlock spends most of TSOT planning John's wedding for him, publicly praising him, and saving his (ex)friend. Then during HLV Sherlock ends up sacrificing himself to save John and Mary.

That's why I love the "no jealousy" interpretation of that scene in 221B after John finds out Sherlock "has a girlfriend". I love the idea of John just being happy for Sherlock, pleased that he's finally enjoying something "humans" do, with a gorgeous girl. That's more at the virtuous, altruistic side of friendship: just wanting your friend's happiness. I think that is genuinely how John feels about Sherlock underneath it all: of course he wants him to be happy.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 2, 2015 7:39 pm

I thought John's reaction was in line with the same thing we saw when he discovered that Sherlock actually had parents!-- and that they were "normal". Utter disbelief. I think there's a part of John that really has trouble beleiving that Sherlock is "human". For two seasons, John has seen Sherlock as either a psychopath, a Madman, a Machine, even a Vulcan. In TSoT, he even challenges Sherlock on showing interest in another human being, and Sherlock's reply, "Chatting. Won't be trying that again." is rather heartbreaking. I think Sherlock really challenged John's perceptions of who he is-- and when it turned out that the "Janine affair" was a ruse for a case, I think it put John back in his comfort zone-- being the voice of morality, appropriate behavior and being suitably outraged at Sherlock's Inhumanity.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (October 2, 2015 7:40 pm)

Liberty · October 3, 2015 9:51 pm

Come to think of it, that revelation (that courting Janine was a ruse), must have been a bit of a blow to John if he had been pleased for Sherlock. Janine was the bridesmaid, so possibly the next closest friend to John and Mary. That relationship would be a bit awkard after Sherlock's deceit! Of course, very shortly after John finds out, it turns out nothing is as it seems, especially Mary. But there must have been a moment of shock, not just at Sherlock deceiving somebody so cruelly, but about him picking Mary's best friend to do it to! And it kind of makes a mockery of John being pleased for Sherlock earlier (just as Sherlock having rescued Irene kind of makes a mockery of John's genuine concern and trying to spare him the news of her death).

I think this is one of the more unusual aspects of their friendship - the way Sherlock is sometimes unfathomable to John. That after all these years, and even after John fell for Sherlock's drug addict "disguise" earlier the same day, John still doesn't understand that Sherlock just wouldn't have a girlfriend, and that there must be a work-related reason. And Sherlock does nothing to let John in on the deceit, even though there would be no danger in doing so (unless, maybe, he thinks that John wouldn't come along to Magnussen's if he knew what was going to happen in advance).

I suppose it's just that Sherlock doesn't feel any need to explain his work to John, and John doesn't express any need to have it explained. But it's difficult for John to know where the "work" starts and ends.

Yitzock · October 3, 2015 10:17 pm

I don't recall John really seeming particularly happy that Sherlock "has a girlfriend." He seems more surprised at the idea, and even more surprised when Sherlock and Janine put on quite mushy displays of affection in front of him. Like my response, it seemed to John like an unlikely situation for Sherlock to be in and an unlikely way for him to behave.

And John does ask about it, but Sherlock dodges his question because he doesn't want to waste time talking about it. Sherlock knows it's to achieve an end related to the case with Magnussen, but he doesn't bother telling John that, leading John to believe it's a real relationship and not a ruse.

John is surprised by that, I think, though I think he might have been just as surprised that Sherlock would have a girlfriend at all and talk to her the way he does. But John still believes it's a real relationship until he finds out the truth.

It could be that Sherlock didn't explain it beforehand for the reason you give, Liberty, that John wouldn't want to come if he knew beforehand that the relationship with Janine was a ruse, but it could also just be because it is typical Sherlock not to explain all of his plans until after the fact, which comes from the original books.

(Sidenote: in can you missed it, I edited my last post because I realized I had written "less one-sided" instead of "more one-sided.")

Last edited by Yitzock (October 3, 2015 10:18 pm)

Liberty · October 4, 2015 7:27 am

Yes, I do think Sherlock is just being Sherlock there - there's no purpose that he can see in bothering to explain to John. This is consistent with how he's behaved in the past, and usually, is something John is comfortable with. I just meant that he had an obvious reason not to tell John that he knew Irene was alive (he was protecting her), but no really good reason not to tell him that the dating was a ruse.

I do think John is very surprised (yes, it's very similar to his reaction when he meets Sherlock's parents), but he seems to believe it (up until the proposal) and be pleased about it. There's a bit in the commentary where they talk about taking it from the original story - that Watson just accepted it, and congratulated Holmes. Then later they say that John was thrilled for Sherlock, getting the really hot girl from the wedding! I think it's funny in that scene that John isn't at all interested in the case, but completely fascinated by Sherlock dating. It's lovely that he cares for Sherlock's happiness (and I do think he might have been a little aware of Sherlock's sadness at the end of TSOT, when Sherlock walks away from that whole world of dating and "relationships", on his own, realising that things have changed). It's probably one of the most positive views of John's part in the friendship in that episode, and Sherlock seems to miss out on it.

Yitzock · October 4, 2015 3:15 pm

I see what you mean about the bit about the reason for keeping the secret.

I had not realized that the part about John being happy for him was taken from the original stories. I guess that's one of the more subtle ways that the writers have referenced them.

Liberty · October 4, 2015 3:42 pm

Well, he doesn't have much time to think about it - he congratulates him, then Holmes tells him what he's up to (unlike Sherlock) and then his concern is for the girl. They keep up the deception a lot longer in HLV.

RavenMorganLeigh · October 4, 2015 4:44 pm

Liberty wrote:
Yes, I do think Sherlock is just being Sherlock there - there's no purpose that he can see in bothering to explain to John. This is consistent with how he's behaved in the past, and usually, is something John is comfortable with. I just meant that he had an obvious reason not to tell John that he knew Irene was alive (he was protecting her), but no really good reason not to tell him that the dating was a ruse.

I do think John is very surprised (yes, it's very similar to his reaction when he meets Sherlock's parents), but he seems to believe it (up until the proposal) and be pleased about it. There's a bit in the commentary where they talk about taking it from the original story - that Watson just accepted it, and congratulated Holmes. Then later they say that John was thrilled for Sherlock, getting the really hot girl from the wedding! I think it's funny in that scene that John isn't at all interested in the case, but completely fascinated by Sherlock dating. It's lovely that he cares for Sherlock's happiness (and I do think he might have been a little aware of Sherlock's sadness at the end of TSOT, when Sherlock walks away from that whole world of dating and "relationships", on his own, realising that things have changed). It's probably one of the most positive views of John's part in the friendship in that episode, and Sherlock seems to miss out on it.

Didin't they also say that they had to keep making Martin Freeman do the scene over, because it came off as "too jealous"?

Liberty · October 4, 2015 5:43 pm

Yes, they did say they had to redo the first take because he looked jealous (it sounds like it was just one take though).

Solenn · October 5, 2015 8:49 am

In S1 & S2 its pretty obvious That John sees Sherlock as a hero, which bothers him: He says he is not. Sherlock is an attention seeker though..
Then in S3 its seems John vision of Sherlock changes, and we clearly sees That he misses it..
To Much contradictory feeling..

besleybean · October 14, 2015 1:30 pm

I'm not entirely sure who was missing who being a hero...
But I think John does now see his friendship with Sherlock as the greatest ever...Sherlock was prepared to serve a life sentence and then(potentially) die for him...he certainly killed for him!

Liberty · January 3, 2016 2:42 pm

I thought TAB maybe gave us a couple of little insights into their friendship. Nothing terribly new, but still, here's some thoughts I had;

The whole Victorian segment is in Sherlock's mind palace. But he chooses to start it through John, with John's writing in The Strand. It also turns out that he'd been looking at John's blog, and his account of their first meeting (repeated in Victorian times). Later he kind of explains that it's because he likes to see himself through John's eyes, as he's much more intelligent! But I liked that he started his massive deduction with meeting John, rather than going straight to the case - it really emphasises that there is no Sherlock without John, that Sherlock as we know him really "starts" when he meets John. And even in the mind palace, he needs John working with him, to solve the crime.

I'll maybe review how I feel on a further viewing, but I really liked the Watson in Sherlock's mind palace. He had all John's good qualities, and Sherlock seemed to be struggling to add anything in bad - even though it's necessary for him to be a little bit sexist (because of the setting and the plot), it somehow seemed as if he was uncomfortable with it. I thought he seemed more attractive and dashing than he is in the modern day episodes. And of course he was particularly insightful and did his own deductions. Obviously, it was actually Sherlock doing the deductions in his mind palace, but I thought it was interesting that he highlighted John's strengths there - Watson picks up on Molly being female, Watson sees through Sherlock's "machine" exterior.

It seems that despite the banter and bickering, both of them seem to see each other as better than they are. I know this isn't news, but I thought it was shown nicely here.