Well, I think you can be sexually attracted to minds so ... I do see attraction there, definitely.   She just knows what men like, so uses her mind to attract him (a clever disguise, nudity, just being the start - it throws and intrigues him, I think.  Then solving the hiker case completely hooks him).   I also think an attraction of some sort is necessary for the story.    And it's the most sexually charged episode (in my opinion). 

Last edited by Liberty (September 30, 2015 7:42 pm)

But why would he willingly get so close if he didn't feel these things?

It's intimate to read a woman's measurements like he does. He also could move further away from Irene while he solves her e-mail riddle, but he lets her kiss him, doesn't move out of her space. And third, when he tells her she's lost the game because she fell for him, he is deliberately using sexual attraction and tension to prove his point. But how would he know, as Mycroft said? If he didn't feel things like that - how would he know how to play them out? He knows. Where from? I think a rehearsed act is never as convincing as one you felt yourself. I'd guess he knows from own experience.

Last edited by Whisky (September 30, 2015 8:20 pm)

Vhanja wrote:

Dorothy83 wrote:

And that to me also comfirms that he's a virgin. Let's not forget that Irene chose to show up naked - and hit on him so obviously - to make him feel uncomfortable and make him lose his footing, under Moriarty's instructions (she says 'he told me how to play the Holmes' boys'). And Moriarty knew that it would make Sherlock uncomfortable, because he has been told Sherlock is a virgin (and like I said, from his reaction in my eyes he confirms this).
 

I agree with this, that's how I view it too. 

As I see it, if Sherlock was gay - and especially if Sherlock was gay and was experienced in sexual relations - Irene's and Janine's advances would have meant absolutely nothing to him. They would make him as indifferent as any other approaches, and he would brush them off easily with an arrogant snide remark as he usually does with everything else he can't be bothered with.

But to me, Sherlock doesn't seem indifferent. He seems stunned, uncomfortable and loses his footing. That is to me not the way an experienced and arrogant gay man acts towards female advances. 

Being that I know a lot a Gay men-- and lived with many in my life-- I have to agree, Vhanja. 
 

I'm just going to jump in at a slight tangent to the current discussion, but I thought it had some bearing on the Sherlock/Irene question. I just finished reading the ACD story "The Lion's Mane" and was intrigued by a passage regarding Holmes' feelings toward women. In "A Scandal in Bohemia" we have Watson's views on how Holmes sees women, but "The Lion's Mane" is narrated by Holmes himself. (This is after he has retired to Sussex, and Watson doesn't appear in the story except at the start, when Holmes mentions that he doesn't see him very often anymore ). Anyway, here's the bit that caught my attention (remember, this is Holmes' voice):

But the words were taken from his mouth by the appearance of the lady herself. There was no gainsaying that she would have graced any assembly in the world. Who could've imagined that so rare a flower would grow from such a root and in such an atmosphere? Women have seldom been an attraction to me, for my brain has always governed my heart, but I could not look upon her perfect clear-cut face, with all the soft freshness of the Downlands in her delicate colouring, without realising that no young man would cross her path unscathed. Such was the girl who had pushed open the door and stood now, wide-eyed and intense, in front of Harold Stackhurst.

So... to me, this could mean either that Holmes is bi, or that he is gay but can recognise beauty in women, or that he is straight but only attracted to women if they interest him intellectually. You guys are better at this sort of analysis than I am, so I'd love to hear your thoughts

Last edited by ukaunz (October 1, 2015 12:56 am)

But there is a big difference between Irene/Janine and Kitty - Kitty only approaches him in order to get information, she is doing it out of ambition. Whereas Irene and Janine feel truly attracted to him. I think Sherlock is able to recognise the motivation. 
 

Actually, she knows she has fallen for Sherlock, because she acknowledges it to John. She is just not careful enough about it. She wants to use the attraction, and it works for her purposes... until Sherlock turns the game around and she is caught in her own game. I think one of the reasons that she uses the screen lock on her phone so careless is that she trust in Sherlock to stay the "Virgin"... that he simply won't realise. She underestimates him in the same way as Mycroft does in that regard. He may be a virgin, but he knows how the game works, apparently. (that's what I meant with my post above)

Irene is never really cold towards Sherlock, even when she later says "not you Junior you're done". Mycroft has it wrong - yes, she played Sherlock, but she was interested in him, too. So the whole game she set up for Sherlock, the textbook scenario, she failed just as much with it as Sherlock did. The textbook didn't cover her falling for Sherlock, and that's what Sherlock uses against her. Mycroft apparently didn't see it.

I don't know about the measurements... why would he take them? He cannot know he will need them. Does he take measurements from all people he sees naked? So he would know John's measurements, him coming out of the shower, all that? I find it strange that he consideres measurements as useful. I would think he was interested, and thought something on the lines of "wow, nice breasts, nice shape... mustn't think that, so, let's see dear brain... ah, yes, measurements... that's a good way to keep on track... it's scientific, it's safe, yes yes..."

About the canon, I read it that way that he could have been attracted to women if he just allowed himself.
 

Last edited by Whisky (October 1, 2015 11:28 am)

Whisky wrote:

I don't know about the measurements... why would he take them? He cannot know he will need them. Does he take measurements from all people he sees naked? So he would know John's measurements, him coming out of the shower, all that? I find it strange that he consideres measurements as useful. I would think he was interested, and thought something on the lines of "wow, nice breasts, nice shape... mustn't think that, so, let's see dear brain... ah, yes, measurements... that's a good way to keep on track... it's scientific, it's safe, yes yes..."
 

The way I see it - it's not that he went 'oh, I must take her measurements'; it's just how his observational skills work. So he observes, stores all the infos he can about everything, and then uses the details he needs. When he is in cases he doesn't always know what details will turn out to be useful, right? It depends also on what happenes later on and what other variables get added.

So I think yes, he would also know John's measurements, if somebody were to ask him - if you think about it, he knows exactly how much weight John has put on...
 

It´s a telepathy.

I have absolutely no doubt that Sherlock knows John's measurements. 

He has a file for god's sake!   

Last edited by tonnaree (October 1, 2015 11:46 am)

I knew it was a mistake to mention John in that context...
Be careful on that step, Dorothy, it's probably very crowded already