Vhanja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Do you think that part of that might be John's...recalcitrance when it comes to seeing Sherlock as a "human being"? He seems very resitant to it-- and the whole season has John head spinning due to being confronted with Sherlock's very apparent human-ness. 

I don't see John being relunctant to seing Sherlock as a "human being", seeing as he said those words exactly at the gravestone scene. ("The most human human being I've ever known...").

I can sort of understand John in that scene. I mean - what was he supposed to do? It was in the middle of their wedding, people were dancing, it was probably expected that the wife and groom were going to join and as well in the party bit of the wedding. "We can't all just stand around here talking", as Sherlock puts it himself. It's neither the time nor the place for any long discusion about this (not that Sherlock and John would ever do something as simple as talk about their feelings and issues anyway...).

Actually--- this brings to mind the part in TSo3 when John and Sherlock are sitting on the bench in the park, and Sherlock asks John about Sholto, and John's like, "Whay are you showing interest in another human being?" rather sacrcastically-- and Sherlock's like, "Chatting. Won't be trying that again." I think, right there-- Sherlock learns-- that he's not allowed to be "human"; John is always thrown off by it. It seems to make him very uncomfortable. And, I do think part of that is John putting Sherlock on a pedestal-- but some of the other comments he's made lead me to think that at least half of him believes or really wants to believe that Sherlock really is a "Sociopath", or "Psycopath" or "Madman", as John is fond of calling Sherlock. And one of the benefits of thinking this way means that John can always feel lat little bit superior-- after all, he's a "real human being." 

Vhanja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Actually--- this brings to mind the part in TSo3 when John and Sherlock are sitting on the bench in the park, and Sherlock asks John about Sholto, and John's like, "Whay are you showing interest in another human being?" rather sacrcastically-- and Sherlock's like, "Chatting. Won't be trying that again." I think, right there-- Sherlock learns-- that he's not allowed to be "human"; John is always thrown off by it. It seems to make him very uncomfortable. And, I do think part of that is John putting Sherlock on a pedestal-- but some of the other comments he's made lead me to think that at least half of him believes or really wants to believe that Sherlock really is a "Sociopath", or "Psycopath" or "Madman", as John is fond of calling Sherlock. And one of the benefits of thinking this way means that John can always feel lat little bit superior-- after all, he's a "real human being." 

I don't think John reacts to Sherlock being "human". I think he, from experience, becomes suspicious because up until then Sherlock has never started idle chat without having an ulterior motive.

How do you explain John's "most human human being" if he refuses to see Sherlock as human?

Because he thought Sherlock was dead: sentiment. 

Vhanja wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

[
Because he thought Sherlock was dead: sentiment. 

I get the impression you have very little faith in John.
 

 
Why would you say that? Seriously?

Is it not possible that John felt guilty for calling Sherlock a machine, before he jumped?

I agree, there must be quite a bit of guilt. What could he have said to stop Sherlock from jumping? Why did he leave in the first place? Etc.

I'm rewatching HLV, and what I find interesting here is John trying to establish his independence. He keeps trying to tell Sherlock that "I'll text you if I'm available" and "You're just assuming I'll come along?"

I find this interesting. Because this isn't TEH when Sherlock has just returned and John is all shaken up about it. This is after their wedding and honeymoon, after John is clearly not happy with his married life and he just found Sherlock in a drug den.

Why do you think John is still eager to assert his independence?

I get the feeling he's still trying to prove to himself more than anyone else that his new life is what he wants. Because it's clear that his current life doesn't make him happy. It's equally clear that whatever he says, he still follows Sherlock almost blindly. So it's only a token resistance. Is the resistance meant for his own conscious more than for Sherlock?

Yeah, maybe he's just asking Sherlock to not take him for granted anymore?

I thought that it was interesting that on one hand, John is like, (in HLV/Drugs den) "If you were any where near this sort of thing you could have called me--", but as stated above in several posts, John makes an effort NOT to contact Sherlock. For a month. So-- he wanted Sherlock to contact him, but not assume he was available, but be open to having John working with him, even if John made it clear he'd gone on with his new, happy life? I'm confused. And John is passive-aggressive. 

SusiGo wrote:

I think John is completely confused at this point and behaves in quite an unpredictable and erratic way: 

- the dream - I do not want to go into this again but for me it is a sign of his underlying attraction to Sherlock
- his aggressive behaviour after being woken
- quarrelling with Mary
- his aggression towards Billy 
-  the mixed signals towards Sherlock - distance and the offer to help at the same time
- being deduced by Billy in front of Mary, Molly, and Sherlock

IMO all this shows that he is not happy with his current life but is at a loss at what to do about it. We should remember what he says about Sherlock in his blog: "He is like a drug." Not "danger is like a drug" but Sherlock. I wonder if he tries to distance himself from his friend because he is afraid of what might happen if he gives in to his innermost wishes. 

So, is John capapble of making choices-- of going with Sherlock because he wants to? Or will he always be swept up-- addicted to-- and helplessly drawn into crime scene and such? Because, it sounds to me like he doesn't really want to do these things-- but he can't seem to help himself.

SusiGo wrote:

But for me there is another reading - John is married now and he woke this morning from dreaming about Sherlock, with his wife at his side. And he apparently expects to find him in front of the door and is disappointed and exasperated when seeing then neighbour instead. I think he cannot trust himself to be a married man who is "just friends" with Sherlock.

I have a feeling that John wants to continue doing cases with Sherlock very much, but at the same time, he is very proud to admit it - maybe is confusing behaviour is his attempt to make Sherlock beg for his help, so that he feels needed and not just a tag-a-log...