I want to makes sure i don't forget any of my points or give anyone short shrift...

Yitzock: I meant "play along" in the sense of joyous participation rather than for it to have any connotations of non-genuine feelings.  I am happy that there are others on this board who enjoy talking about their friendship as the decisive factor, emotionally speaking, that drives the show forward.

I don't think the virtue that we see in their friendship falls into a conventional norm of being "good" (upstanding citizens, morally "pure" in a religious sense, etc.).  The virtue that is exemplifiied to me in their friendship is that they respect each other for what they are (flaws and all) and accept their many differences as varietal strengths and that allows each of them to grow as people.  That in itself is one of the hardest things for people to learn as a society (look at all the strife in the world because people don't know how to accept those who aren't in their "tribe").  When you look at their personalities they are more complete being a pair of friends than they are separately. 

nakahara: And that segues nicely into your point (by the way thank you for the compliment about my post).
Through their friendship they have become more well rounded people - open to new ways of looking at things (John with the lessening of his bitterness, his ability to reach out and find love with Mary, etc. and Sherlock with finding that he can become close to another human being, allow himself to show an emotional connection to John and find self-worth in that he is worthy enough to be someone's best friend).

And again Yitzock: The ideal is never stated outright in any of the Greek philospher's works.  There are examples but there isn't a dictum as to what is absolute virtue. The virtue in the friendship is the act of being a truly good friend and committing to another person wholly (willing to sacrifice for the good of the other person, type of thing).  The virtue is the level of committment that you make to that friendship.  It also has to do with the level of intimacy involved in the friendship I believe.  That is why I think there is still some development that has to take place.  It's an interesting thought...



-Val

That could be the "dark" aspects of the story that the creators have alluded to in their teases so far. perhaps???  Present a situation that truly puts them in jeopardy (not one in which Sherrlock has the upper hand and has already figured his way out of it like he did with the finale of Season 2).   

It could fit nicely into the development of their friendship.

Interesting...

While I was typing this up it occurred to me that in Season 3 the intimacy fator between Sherlock and John actually increased with the marriage of John to Mary.  Both  John and Sherlock were able to express their feelilngs for each other as friends more openly which for them was monumental.  Strange isn't it? 

-Val

I'll have to give that more thought.

But this thought did occur to me... Sherlock's behaviour by the end of TSOT was sort of along the line of a virtuous friendship... the shedding of pettiness and jealousy of hurt feelings about "loosing" John as a friend and becoming more expansive as a result in his emotions. 

I think this ties into the whole theme of the episode too - especially as it relates to Major Sholto (sp.?) and his friendship with John. 

The whole thing comes to a crux in the conversation at the Major's door when the case is solved by Sherlock.  Not quite sure of the details... they are kind of running through my mind too quickly and I have to wrap this post up to make an important phone call soon. 

But I will return tomorrow after hopefully thinking this out more thoroughly.

-Val

Val, to be clear, the romantic tropes I was talking about were things like saving each other - nothing at all to do with being "in a romance".   I see them purely as friends and there isn't really anywhere else to discuss this without it being derailed into whether they are more than friends.    I think your objection is to the word "romantic" and if you can think of a better one that describes the same concept, I'm happy to use that.  I really don't like "bromantic" but will use it if it's considered more acceptable!   I suppose it has the advantage of including the romance aspects but making clear that it's not about "a romance", so maybe I just need to embrace the word .    I'm happy to leave the tropes behind if nobody is interested (I thought it was interesting in the sense of the writers making the show "about" their relationship, and developing it), but it would be a real shame if we couldn't discuss the (b)romantic aspects of their friendship here, of all places.  This thread is specifically for their friendship, and discussion of the different aspects of it.

Anyway, virtue - I suppose the concept I'm struggling with is that the virtuousness in a friendship is partly because of what the friendship means to the person.   If Sherlock does something for John that's kind of virtuous and selfless, in the end, it's because it's John and what John means to him, rather than because he has become a better person.   I think for both them, their best qualities are seen in relation to each other (John's loyalty and steadfastness, Sherlock's protectiveness, and so on), but does that translate outside the friendship?   Sherlock goes and saves the world at the end of TRF despite John as well as for John.    In other words, I don't know if I see the ideal friendship as being virtuous, any more than I see a mother's love for a child as virtuous, for instance (the mother might do anything to save her child which seems virtuous and noble within that relationship, but she would save her child rather than a more worthy person or people, which seems more personal and about what the child means to her).    If it's "the two of us against the world", then the way they are with each other might be noble, but the world is getting short shrift.   Not that I'm saying that's bad - just that it doesn't enoble them outside of the friendship itself.  (And just an aside, as once again, I'll say that I don't have any philisophy knowledge or background, but it's interesting that we're going back to the Greeks/Aristotle as the authority on friendship, when it was a different time with different social relationships. Again, just an observation than any sort of criticism!). 

Sherlock's jealousy is a little childish and self-centred (and they do seem to be wanting to show him as childlike in that episode).    But it doesn't affect anything adversely - he doesn't stop Sholto coming to the wedding, he isn't rude to him, he doesn't make John feel awkward about it, and in fact he ends up saving Sholto's life - his own jealousy helps him recognise a similar relationship with John, which turns out to be key to stopping Sholto's "suicide" (with the fall still in Sherlock's mind). 

I'm enjoying reading this thread-- and I'm coming from an odd place. Yes, I do think the series is portraying Sherlock and John's relationship as strictly platonic, and yes, I think Mofftiss are actively "Queerbaiting" for laughs, and even they have said they needed to stop using that as a gag-- no, I don't think Johnlock will ever become canon-- and yes, I'd love to see it become canon, because it would be most excellent, and yes, I do think Mofftiss uses romantic tropes as shorthand to show the closeness of the friendship-- and then milks it, knowing exactly what effect it has on the fandom. No, I don't think Ben C and Martin will ever consent to play their roles as Gay men, and I suspect a lot of that might have to do with Amanda's public dislike of slash and the effects she's worried about it having on her kids. 

So--weird. Plus-- I'm not convinced of strength of the friendship as of the end of HLV. Sherlock was definitely John's best freind-- but John had somehow become... a colleague. 

I don't really care if AA has a public dislike of slash fiction or that Ben or Martin will ever consent to play gay men.

Does that really relate to a discussion specifically about the FRIENDSHIP of John and Sherlock??

To me romance is directly tied to sexual desire and I do not equate the love shown in a friendship (and yes there are definitely different kinds of love as I see it), especially this specific friendship, as an aspect tied to anything "romantic" at all.  There are a lot of literary scholars who specialise in medieval romance literature, who would back me up on this as well (and I am talking legitimate scholars - not some "meta" blogger). 

Loyalty, committment, respect, empathy and admiration don't have to be tied to romantic notions.  To me those attributes are the hallmarks of a friendship (and other relationships) and can operate entirely independant of any romance.  Just because some (or if you are lucky, all of them) can be found in a romance doesn't mean that a romantic relationship holds exclusive domain over those qualities.  So to equate those qualities as "romance tropes" really does set my teeth on edge a bit.  Not in an angry way - but it really puzzles me why folks seem intent on assigning those qualities almost exclusively to romantic relationships... especially in Sherlock.   

I thought this thread was the one little corner of this entire board that was for discussions of the pure friendship (in a non-sexual way) of John and Sherlock? 

What has "queerbaiting" got to do with that?  Isn't that something that is better suited on another thread?   
I can think of at least a dozen other threads where that topic is more appropriate material than this one (and I do believe it has been discussed by the mostly Johnlocker fans quite freely on those threads in the past). 

I just don't understand why that aspect has to be part of this thread as well now...

-Val

It isn't about ruffling my personal feathers, I hope. 

I hope it is about sticking to the parameters of the thread.  And I apologise if I seemed ill-tempered about this - it wasn't the intent of my previous post.

It's just that it is sometimes frustrating for a non-Johnlocker, like myself, to find a place on this board that doesn't include the "romance/shipping/they are gay" aspects and I was told this was one of the few places that would fit that criteria. I don't mind at all if all the other threads want to discuss those aspects - more power to the shippers/Johnlockers!  But this is just one corner that I think shouldn't include it, perhaps??

As for the lessening of their friendship in HLV... I just don't see it at all.

I think John wasn't totally ignorant of the sacrifice that Sherlock had made by shooting CAM - he may not have been aware of the true fate of Sherlock as he got on the plane, but he certainly appreciated that Sherlock had made a mighty enough sacrifice to keep Mary safe (and John and Mary's marriage from being destroyed in the process) by taking the step of shooting CAM to rid the world and John (and Mary) of that particular evil. 

That falls into the virtue friendship for me at least - showing committment to the friendship through an act of self-sacrifice.  That is considered to be a step towards a more noble form of friendship.  I think that shows that John really is exhibiting qualities of a deeper friendship with Sherlock by the end of that episode.

Following along in the theory that utility friendships (such as those who form friendships around work related situations) aren't necessarily as binding as deeper friendships can be, I think that the whole ending of HLV really shows how both John and Sherlock have moved well beyond just being collegues.  They both are aware of a high level of sacrifice that has been made and John's behaviour in the ending scene with Sherlock on the tarmac kind of demonstrates to me that he is thanking Sherlock for his sacrificial actions (it isn't overtly in the text but it is in the subtext).

-Val



 

Mod's note 
In the light of the above exchange I think this might be a good rule: 
- Greatest Friendship: Johnlock-free discussion of the Sherlock/John friendship
- Comprehensive Guide: pro-Johnlock discussion 
- Official Debate: pros and cons for Johnlock in Canon and all adaptations
I think if we stick to these simple rules, everything should be fine. 

Quote:"
So-- are you saying that the distance shown at the end of HLV was really just them going to a more relaxed, less joined-at-the-hip kind of "we're just two mates who see each other occasionally" sort of thing? Because that's how a lot of friendships work-- and John will be busy with Mary and the baby from now on. So casual friendship , mostly around activities with John, Mary and Baby. (Which is very normal) Or, do they go back to Utility from here? Perhaps a deeper sort of utility frienship? (Kind of like cops who are partners.) They don't really fraternize outside of work, except for work-related stuff. And, obivously, John does not move back to Baker street. And, actually i think I remember Mofftiss talking about how they wanted to get John OUT of 221B, and on his own. Could this be where they're headed? "

No, not at all.  I am talking about the emotional aspects of their friendship, not about the physical distance between the two characters (whether John lives with Sherlock or not).

Emotionally I see them closer as friends at the end of HLV.  That has nothing to do with who lives with who.  Personally speaking I have deep and abiding friendships with several people who don't even live in the same city as we do - it doesn't lessen the emotional ties I have with them or lessen the level of friendship.  They are still what I would classify as "virtue friends".

The same with John and Sherlock (at least the way I see it).

-Val

I didn't say that they would remain distant but close friends in the future of the show.  I don't know what the writers will do in Season 4. 

All I said was that what I see in HLV was a type of maturity about their friendship that could indicate it was stronger (emotionally) regardless of whether they were living together in the episode. 

And I sited a personal experience from my own life that reinforces the notion that for me, friendships (even very close ones) don't necessarily have to rely on close physical proximity (like living in the same house/flat or even the same city). 

When HLV was presented John and Sherlock were not living together at 221b Baker St.  Some might feel that fact made their friendship weaker?  I didn't and still don't.  In fact I thought what HLV did show was that John and Sherlock's friendship was actually stronger IMO - not because they weren't flatmates, but because of what happened in the episode itself... Sherlock made a personal sacrifice for the happiness of John and Mary, and John indicated to Sherlock that he appreciated this sacrifice (both things are indicators of a deep and abiding friendship that has true virtue IMO). 

So that's why I said that for me HLV shows a deeper understanding on both their parts of what their friendship means to each of them.

As for the future... I will wait and see what actions, plots and developments the writers have in store for us and I would rather not speculated what will happen in the future.

I'm shit at making predictions anyway...   The only thing I think might happen (as far as their friendship goes) is that the writers have said that things will get a little darker in the fourth season, so maybe another sacrifice between the two characters will come up and test their friendship further... but as to specifics or what form that challenge will take, I just don't know what that could be ...

-Val