BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Solenn · September 29, 2015 3:15 pm

Ah Dorothy83 youre right ! In S2 we never saw John at work, maybe Sarah finally fired him X)
Its interesting to see how John has never any doubt about his life after Sherlock's return. I mean, we Just saw him sleepless or paranoid a bit but he never thinks of going back in 221B . Well I understand that he has to on with his life, he's almost married and it has been hard for him but still its really what schocked me the most in S3. If my best friend came back from the dead I will beat the sh*t out of him but I will requestion my life, even if I have'move on' like Johm said. He forgives him but thats it.Same goes at the end of HLV : If Sherlock hadnt come back he will have go on perfectly with his life. So Mary is maybe in Sherlock's eyes his remplacement. Anyway I cant believe her looking like sherlock (personnality wise) is pure chance and come from nowhere. Im still thinking about plot 😈

SusiGo · September 29, 2015 7:59 pm

Here are some interesting thoughts about Mary and Mrs Holmes mirroring each other:

http://slashscribe.tumblr.com/post/129807650116/meta-mummy-is-a-mirror-for-mary-the-flash-drive

Magingus · September 29, 2015 9:33 pm

Dorothy83 wrote:
No, it doesn't work for me either, in fact I think it's absolute poo and I wanted to throw my shoes at the screen when I watched it the first time (and every other time after that - luckily I don't watch it often because it's not good for my blood pressure! )

The problem for me is that I don't think Sherlock said it to make it easy for Mary - or perhaps he did, so that John would stop screaming and let him get on with the case, but I still think Sherlock intended for John and Mary to make up because he thought John was going to be heartbroken and wanted to fix things for him and give him back his wife. I think Moffat actually does believe that's a completely logical explanation for them getting back together, unfortunately - he does love messed up couples (see DW...I mean, he adores River Song and thinks she and the Doctor are so romantic together.......)

The following is one of my interpretations of that scene:

Sherlock was trying to force a reconciliation between John and Mary for reasons other than John's happiness.

I think he might have been trying to make sure Mary remained in the picture, so he could get information on her. If she left (or was turned away by John), his chances of getting information on her would be greatly reduced.

So he manipulates the situation. He somehow shifts the blame for Mary's lies and secrets onto John, and defends Mary's actions to the point of lying (that "surgery" line was nonsense - he knew she wanted him dead). Thus, John was willing to entertain the notion of forgiving Mary. Thus, Mary (supposedly) handed over all of her past secrets in an attempt to come clean.

That would mean Sherlock's plan had worked. Mary gave up her secrets to John, and getting them off of John would have been a piece of cake for Sherlock. (I describe in another thread how Sherlock had a perfect opportunity to pick John's pocket as the paramedics arrived - and this is not the only occasion he had to get his hands on that drive).

Having to defend Mary (especially in his condition at the time) seemed to take its toll on him. Look at how he treats Mrs. Hudson at the beginning of that scene. It seems like he's channeling his anger at her rather than at Mary, whom he's trying to appease (or more appropriately, manipulate).

As I said, this is simply one of my interpretations of that scene. I feel this is a strong possibility, but am willing to be wrong.

Vhanja · September 29, 2015 10:07 pm

Magingus wrote:
Sherlock was trying to force a reconciliation between John and Mary for reasons other than John's happiness.
So he manipulates the situation. He somehow shifts the blame for Mary's lies and secrets onto John, and defends Mary's actions to the point of lying (that "surgery" line was nonsense - he knew she wanted him dead).

Thank you, I'm so happy that someone sees this in a similar way that I do. I am not sure what Sherlock's motives are, but what I see is John being put to blame for this situation. And I think that is horrible.

tonnaree · September 29, 2015 11:08 pm

I think Sherlock puts a higher value on John's safety rather than his happiness.
Until proven otherwise I believe that no matter what Sherlock has done, keeping John safe is one of his prime concerns. We've already seen that he will lie to John to keep him safe and I also believe he's doing a lot of lieing in the 221b scene of HLV.

Last edited by tonnaree (September 29, 2015 11:09 pm)

Vhanja · September 30, 2015 12:20 am

I'm rewatching HLV and it gives me a bit of a new perspective.

Yes, Mary threatens Sherlock while he is weak and laying in hospital bed. There is really nothing mitigating nor extenuating about it. That is what she does, and it's quite horrible.

However, I get the feeling - from the show itself - that we are to treat it in a smilar instance as, for instance, Sherlock doing the experiment on John in HoB. In one scene, Sherlock has his feets on the table and is shockingly cold about his best friend being scared to death. In the next scene, John is mildly annoyed about it, Sherlock is endearingly (almost) sorry for it, and it's forgotten.

That's how I feel this Mary threatening Sherlock is being treated. We have the threatening scene itself, which is scary and unforgivable, and then it sort of gets lost or forgot in between everything else (and certainly Sherlock never bothers to mention it at all to anyone).

I feel this is more a weakness of the writing (someone does something that is first presented in a horrible way and then forgotten) than anything to do with the character themselves.

Oh, and also:

For those who miss any kind of remorse or self-awareness of her part: Look at her face when she's talking to Daddy Holmes:

"You're the sane one, aren't you?"
"Aren't you?"

Look at her face after his question, she can't even give him an answer.

(And then they are luckily interrupted by John entering).

What I will say, though, is that the biggest problem that I have with Mary is also the one I have with Sherlock - it's in the Watson Domestic, they both try to pin the blame on John. And I find it disgusting, from the both of then. It's one of my major gripes with the entire series, it's victimg blaming of the worst kind. Sherlock started in, in that scene, and later (when she is accepted as a client)) Mary continues to build upon that idea, probably feeling she's supported by Sherlock. I find it appalling from the both of them (with emphasis of Mary since this is her thread).

Last edited by Vhanja (September 30, 2015 12:55 am)

Magingus · September 30, 2015 12:51 am

tonnaree wrote:
I think Sherlock puts a higher value on John's safety rather than his happiness.
Until proven otherwise I believe that no matter what Sherlock has done, keeping John safe is one of his prime concerns. We've already seen that he will lie to John to keep him safe and I also believe he's doing a lot of lieing in the 221b scene of HLV.

This, of course, does not conflict with the notion of Sherlock manipulating both John and Mary for some purpose.

My own guess as to why he might be doing this (to get more information about Mary and her secrets) could very well be for purposes of John's safety. By getting more information on Mary's dark past, he would be better informed to ascertain how much danger John might be in from her.

Magingus · September 30, 2015 1:08 am

Vhanja wrote:
That's how I feel this Mary threatening Sherlock is being treated. We have the threatening scene itself, which is scary and unforgivable, and then it sort of gets lost or forgot in between everything else (and certainly Sherlock never bothers to mention it at all to anyone).

I feel this is more a weakness of the writing (someone does something that is first presented in a horrible way and then forgotten) than anything to do with the character themselves.

I don't know if I can accept that the writers simply "forgot" about Mary threatening Sherlock between trying to kill him once (CAM's office) and threatening to do so again (Lauriston Gardens).

I personally find it more probable that Sherlock swept that particular instance under the rug because he was in the process of manipulating Mary, in a way that required her to be on his side. During the 221B scene, he appears to be going out of his way to put Mary at her ease (even to the point of inflicting emotional pain on his best friend). If putting her at ease was his goal, then not mentioning her threat would be a wise choice.

Vhanja wrote:
What I will say, though, is that the biggest problem that I have with Mary is also the one I have with Sherlock - it's in the Watson Domestic, they both try to pin the blame on John. And I find it disgusting, from the both of then. It's one of my major gripes with the entire series, it's victimg blaming of the worst kind. Sherlock started in, in that scene, and later (when she is accepted as a client)) Mary continues to build upon that idea, probably feeling she's supported by Sherlock. I find it appalling from the both of them (with emphasis of Mary since this is her thread).

I agree completely with this. As I mentioned in my post above, the only reason I can see Sherlock shifting the blame to John is because he is playing some kind of game. My hope is that this terrible action is somehow important for John's overall safety in the long run.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 30, 2015 4:37 am

I don't know why people think that Sherlock pointing out that John tends to be pulled towards dangerous people and situations is "blaming" him? Because the truth is-- John DOES have that tendency. And I suspect that he did see it in Mary, even subsconsiously-- (and Mary says that)-- and how do we know what kinds of dates they went on-- hangliding? Rock Climbing? We don't know anything about their courtship. The thing is-- I suspect people take that line personally-- as if it's saying "You're to blame for what's going wrong in your life"-- but I don't see it that way. It's more "This is one of your character traits-- pay attention, you keep falling into this pattern. Be conscious of it." Here's another thing-- maybe if John was conscious of what he wanted-- not what he thinks he should want, or what others want for him, --but what HE really wanted-and then he went after it-- on purpose, instead of being "swept up" by others, he'd be happier. And, he'd finally have control of his life.

Finally, I don't see Sherlock's saying, "Because you chose her", and that whole sequence as being nearly as bad as lying to someone you marry from the day you met them, marrying them under an assumed name, doing that while knowing that there are very dangerous people after you who will kill you and others around you as collateral damage, shooting your husband's best friend (who befriended you, planned your wedding and then offered to help you while you were holding a gun on him), then threatening that person in the hospital while they're helpless, then threatening to kill him again after you've tracked them down with a gun and silencer, then not showing any remorse whatsover, etc, etc, etc, ....

I mean, really????

RavenMorganLeigh · September 30, 2015 4:42 am

Another thought--- why Sherlock might ahve manipulated Mary and John to stay togther:
(1) Mary does love (or want to keep) John. At all costs. So, she'll (at least try) to keep him safe.
(2) Sherlock-- wounded, having heart failure, and internal bleeding-- what could he actually do with so little info about her? So, I think he was buying time.

nakahara · September 30, 2015 7:23 am

Magingus wrote:
The following is one of my interpretations of that scene:

Sherlock was trying to force a reconciliation between John and Mary for reasons other than John's happiness.
I think he might have been trying to make sure Mary remained in the picture, so he could get information on her. If she left (or was turned away by John), his chances of getting information on her would be greatly reduced.

Personally, I think that Sherlock tried to force a reconcilliation between John and Mary for John´s safety.
Mary nicely demonstated to us that she has no compunction to shoot any person who knows her secrets, no matter if that person is her friend, somebody she "likes". With the same act she demonstated that despite the lip service she pays to loving John, she does not hesitate to put John through excruciate pain of Sherlock´s loss again, to hurt him grievously if it does make her safer.
And now it´s John himself who knows her secrets. Who can give her away if he feels like it.
If there was no sign of reconcilliation between them, I fully believe Mary would make attempt on John´s life in turn.
Yes, she would give a nice speech before the act about how she loves John and how sorry she is, but as we already saw, this would not stop her hand from pulling the trigger.
When Sherlock makes the speech, he doesn´t know if he would survive the next hour. He must try to persuade Mary that she is safe from John because she is the client.
John feeling offended is a "collateral damage" that can´t be avoided - but if it´s for his own safety, it is worth it.

Magingus wrote:
So he manipulates the situation. He somehow shifts the blame for Mary's lies and secrets onto John, and defends Mary's actions to the point of lying (that "surgery" line was nonsense - he knew she wanted him dead). Thus, John was willing to entertain the notion of forgiving Mary. Thus, Mary (supposedly) handed over all of her past secrets in an attempt to come clean.

I refuse to believe John is so dumb he swallows this "surgery" story without protest and that he doesn´t suspect he is being manipulated. In my opinion he knows right away that the story is bullshit. He just let Sherlock have his way with Mary ("your way, always your way").

Magingus wrote:
That would mean Sherlock's plan had worked. Mary gave up her secrets to John, and getting them off of John would have been a piece of cake for Sherlock. (I describe in another thread how Sherlock had a perfect opportunity to pick John's pocket as the paramedics arrived - and this is not the only occasion he had to get his hands on that drive).

I´m not sure about this. Mary made it obvious that she knows when Sherlock is fibbing and that she will not be manipulated so easily. She would read John like an open book if he tried to get her secrets from her - and she would not give them away herself so easily.

Magingus wrote:
Having to defend Mary (especially in his condition at the time) seemed to take its toll on him. Look at how he treats Mrs. Hudson at the beginning of that scene. It seems like he's channeling his anger at her rather than at Mary, whom he's trying to appease (or more appropriately, manipulate).
As I said, this is simply one of my interpretations of that scene. I feel this is a strong possibility, but am willing to be wrong.

Yes, his short temper with Mrs. Hudson seems to be caused by this + the pain he is in during the scene.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 30, 2015 7:43 am

nakahara wrote:
Magingus wrote:
The following is one of my interpretations of that scene:

Sherlock was trying to force a reconciliation between John and Mary for reasons other than John's happiness.
I think he might have been trying to make sure Mary remained in the picture, so he could get information on her. If she left (or was turned away by John), his chances of getting information on her would be greatly reduced.
Personally, I think that Sherlock tried to force a reconcilliation between John and Mary for John´s safety.
Mary nicely demonstated to us that she has no compunction to shoot any person who knows her secrets, no matter if that person is her friend, somebody she "likes". With the same act she demonstated that despite the lip service she pays to loving John, she does not hesitate to put John through excruciate pain of Sherlock´s loss again, to hurt him grievously if it does make her safer.
And now it´s John himself who knows her secrets. Who can give her away if he feels like it.
If there was no sign of reconcilliation between them, I fully believe Mary would make attempt on John´s life in turn.
Yes, she would give a nice speech before the act about how she loves John and how sorry she is, but as we already saw, this would not stop her hand from pulling the trigger.
When Sherlock makes the speech, he doesn´t know if he would survive the next hour. He must try to persuade Mary that she is safe from John because she is the client.
John feeling offended is a "collateral damage" that can´t be avoided - but if it´s for his own safety, it is worth it.

Magingus wrote:
So he manipulates the situation. He somehow shifts the blame for Mary's lies and secrets onto John, and defends Mary's actions to the point of lying (that "surgery" line was nonsense - he knew she wanted him dead). Thus, John was willing to entertain the notion of forgiving Mary. Thus, Mary (supposedly) handed over all of her past secrets in an attempt to come clean.
I refuse to believe John is so dumb he swallows this "surgery" story without protest and that he doesn´t suspect he is being manipulated. In my opinion he knows right away that the story is bullshit. He just let Sherlock have his way with Mary ("your way, always your way").

Magingus wrote:
That would mean Sherlock's plan had worked. Mary gave up her secrets to John, and getting them off of John would have been a piece of cake for Sherlock. (I describe in another thread how Sherlock had a perfect opportunity to pick John's pocket as the paramedics arrived - and this is not the only occasion he had to get his hands on that drive).
I´m not sure about this. Mary made it obvious that she knows when Sherlock is fibbing and that she will not be manipulated so easily. She would read John like an open book if he tried to get her secrets from her - and she would not give them away herself so easily.

Magingus wrote:
Having to defend Mary (especially in his condition at the time) seemed to take its toll on him. Look at how he treats Mrs. Hudson at the beginning of that scene. It seems like he's channeling his anger at her rather than at Mary, whom he's trying to appease (or more appropriately, manipulate).
As I said, this is simply one of my interpretations of that scene. I feel this is a strong possibility, but am willing to be wrong.
Yes, his short temper with Mrs. Hudson seems to be caused by this + the pain he is in during the scene.

You know, Nakahara-- I think you are the first person I've ever seen assert that Mary might actually kill John, if she thought she "had" to. And it makes total sense.

SusiGo · September 30, 2015 7:46 am

Count me in.

We can only speculate on what she would do if John stopped loving her.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 30, 2015 7:49 am

Agreed. And, err-- YIKES.

Vhanja · September 30, 2015 11:31 am

I don't think she would've killed John. She clearly loves him. She doesn't seem to be the "if I can't have you then nobody will"-type. Yes, she can be selfish and coldly calculating, but not mentally unstable.

SusiGo · September 30, 2015 11:32 am

And this is where I disagree. I do not see her loving him, at least not in a selfless way concentrated on his wellbeing and not her own.

Vhanja · September 30, 2015 11:35 am

If she didn't love him, she wouldn't be so desperate to keep him at all costs. And she wouldn't cry with relief when he took her back.

Love isn't always selfless. Love can be very selfish.

SusiGo · September 30, 2015 11:41 am

But what about the other person's wellbeing if it is selfish? It basically means that to me my own wellbeing and feelings are more important than those of my partner. I honestly do not know if I would still call it love. Maybe possessiveness, but not love. (I will resist from bringing up the psychopath discussion once again).
But this is my opinion and we probably have to agree to disagree in it.

Vhanja · September 30, 2015 11:44 am

Of course, if you only define love as putting someone elses wellbeing above your own, then it's not love. But I don't use that definition. To me, I don't see a problem with Mary having strong, romantic feelings for John and at the same time being selfish in wanting to keep his love for her.

tonnaree · September 30, 2015 12:15 pm

You could say that she loves him, but that it is not a possitive, healthy love.