BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · September 26, 2015 4:38 pm

Not sure if we had this one. Interesting comparison:

http://trained-cormorant.tumblr.com/post/129921436748/youve-just-been-informed-that-a-murder-is-about

Vhanja · September 26, 2015 4:47 pm

I've always interpreted that smile to be a polite "Will you excuse me"-smile. Sort of partly a smile to apologize for rushing through the guests and partly a "everything is ok"-smile.

SusiGo · September 26, 2015 4:51 pm

I do see quite a lot of excitement in there. And I remember when watching the scene for the first time I thought, "And they told us she would not come between them." Even then, before HLV, I felt she did not belong in that scene. And my opinion has not changed.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 26, 2015 4:52 pm

I always "read" Mary's demeanour as showing "what normal people do" in these sorts of situations-- smile politely, deal with the issue. In this sequence, Mary shows up both Sherlock and John, actually-- she remembers the room number, she reigns in John and keeps him from breaking down the door prematurely, -- and it was a glimpse of what the three of them working together could look like. Or, the Sign of Three. Ugh!

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 26, 2015 4:53 pm)

SusiGo · September 26, 2015 4:54 pm

Nooo!

RavenMorganLeigh · September 26, 2015 5:24 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Nooo!

A whole WORLD of NO!

Zatoichi · September 26, 2015 6:36 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I always "read" Mary's demeanour as showing "what normal people do" in these sorts of situations-- smile politely, deal with the issue. In this sequence, Mary shows up both Sherlock and John, actually-- she remembers the room number, she reigns in John and keeps him from breaking down the door prematurely, -- and it was a glimpse of what the three of them working together could look like. Or, the Sign of Three. Ugh!

How could they ever get along without her? Ugh indeed..

I see excitement too.. although I know such interpretations are subjective. I think in the commentary Steven said something about it, but I don´t remember exactly what it was. What I definitely do not see is a woman who is worried her beloved husband might lose someone important to him - again. That´s no polite but worried smile to me. She rather looks as if she very much enjoys herself and the situation.. another "hint at her true persona". (Empathy is clearly not one of her strong points..)

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 26, 2015 6:39 pm)

Liberty · September 26, 2015 9:05 pm

Yes, one of the clues that she's not what she seems, I think. I do wonder how they told Amanda to act it (assuming it's true that they didn't let her know how Mary was going to turn out). She's completely OK about it - calmer than Sherlock and John, even enjoying it.

SusiGo · September 26, 2015 9:08 pm

I guess they told her to play her cool, whatever that means. The cool woman, equal to Sherlock and John. But as Zatoichi said, her being not worried at all that her husband might lose someone dear to him of course foreshadows HLV. Not in Amanda's acting but within the narrative.

SusiGo · September 28, 2015 4:21 pm

This is not strictly about Mary's character as such but I find it interesting:

http://trained-cormorant.tumblr.com/post/130067081343/johns-relationship-status

Liberty · September 28, 2015 5:58 pm

I don't think Magnussen's scans reveal anything definite in those case, but it's a interesting take. It could certainly be what's behind Mary saying that John won't love her any more!

Another thing I don't think the writer mentions is that Magnussen list John's pressure point as "Mary Morstan", when her name is now Mary Watson. That kind of backs up what the writer is saying ... although I also wonder if it means something different. Magnussen starts with Lady Smallwood and works back to her (unnamed) "husband"". With John, he fortuitiously happens to already know about Mary for other reasons. He hasn't got to Mary because of the Mycroft-Sherlock-John chain, but already was having dealings with her. (We maybe already know this because of the wedding telegram, although that could just mean that Magnussen had already worked out his plan). Was he just lucky that those two targets connected up? I

Liberty · September 29, 2015 8:24 am

Quite possibly - it just seems a bit fortuitous that John happened to marry somebody with that background. But I suppose it's fortuitious that Lady Smallwood's husband happened to have had a slightly inappropriate relationship in the past. I suppose if Magnussen looked hard enough, he'd find a pressure point for anybody. Perhaps he just happened to strike gold when he came across Mary. It was also a bit fortuitous that Lady Smallwood happened to hire Sherlock at that point as well (or did Magnussen believe he was driving her in that direction? She has a Mycroft connection, after all).

Solenn · September 29, 2015 2:01 pm

There's something ive been wondering about her.
For me its like she apparead because of Sherlock death. I mean we dont know how John and her met, at work? Well she wasnt when Sarah was there (is she still? No idea) anyway they cleary doesnt have the same 'grade' (is it correct in english?) in their job, so I dont think Mary is remplacing Sarah at work.
And also Im very suscpisious about Mycroft. Its clear that he has been watching John from afar,he admits it in TEH. So I will never believe he didnt know about Mary and thus, Im certain he made research about her. Maybe he knew who she was or even maybe he send Mary to confort and keep an eye on John.
WOOW to much plot theories my head is gonna burst 8B

Dorothy83 · September 29, 2015 2:03 pm

Solenn wrote:
There's something ive been wondering about her.
For me its like she apparead because of Sherlock death. I mean we dont know how John and her met, at work? Well she wasnt when Sarah was there (is she still? No idea) anyway they cleary doesnt have the same 'grade' (is it correct in english?) in their job, so I dont think Mary is remplacing Sarah at work.

John does not work at his old GP practice and with Sarah any longer. In TEH he works for a private GP in a different clinic, with Mary, which is basically certainly how they met.

SusiGo · September 29, 2015 2:09 pm

True but I like what Solenn said because it has various implications:

- John did not have a serious relationship with a woman until Sherlock had been dead for some time. So Mary the finacée was in a way made possible only by Sherlock's death.
- And she might be associated with Moriarty and might have been observing John since Sherlock's death or Moriarty or his circle had realised that Sherlock was alive (I mean, if Anderson could come up with this theory, why not them?) and sent her to John because they knew Sherlock would contact him sooner or later.
- Or Mycroft being associated with Mary in some way (my least preferred theory) and he planted her to keep a weather eye on John.

Lots of theories that would fit with your idea, Solenn.

Dorothy83 · September 29, 2015 2:15 pm

Oh, absolutely - John would have never been able to sustain a proper relationship while Sherlock was alive, so that certainly was one of the reasons he managed to keep a girlfriend - plus, it looked as if John didn't even want (or need?) a girlfriend during that time when he and Sherlock were pretty settled with each other (just before Sherlock's fall) - although Mofftiss would most likely not agree with this interpretation.

Plus, Sherlock 'dying' left John abandoned and alone, so that was certainly a massive push towards him looking for company and affection in Mary.

I don't know if her connection to them goes further - if she was following them before Sherlock died and she came into John's life. My headcanon is that she was not, because it sounds a bit cheesy to me if she was. And in my eyes, there is no connection between her and Mycroft.

SusiGo · September 29, 2015 2:19 pm

I see what you mean but I still think it a very big coincidence that John Watson of all people meets an ex-assassin turned nurse in his surgery who is is a brilliant shot and who is later blackmailed by the very man who tries to blackmail/put pressure on John's best friend's brother.

Dorothy83 · September 29, 2015 2:24 pm

I know and I see what you mean, but I believe it's all due to the fact that it's a TV show and they need things like this for the plot I know it's a big coincidence, but it wouldn't be as gripping or shocking if they followed reality very closely

And like Sherlock said - John looks for danger...so in a sense, it's as if he was looking for Mary (*throws up*)

SusiGo · September 29, 2015 2:27 pm

Nooo - one of the things in HLV I cannot accept. John IMO definitely did not know about Mary's past and could not anticipate the revelation. And I am sure he did not look for that in Mary. I think this is just Sherlock supplying Mary with a cheap way out. "You got what you wanted even if you did not know it at the time." Does not work for me.

Dorothy83 · September 29, 2015 2:31 pm

No, it doesn't work for me either, in fact I think it's absolute poo and I wanted to throw my shoes at the screen when I watched it the first time (and every other time after that - luckily I don't watch it often because it's not good for my blood pressure! )

The problem for me is that I don't think Sherlock said it to make it easy for Mary - or perhaps he did, so that John would stop screaming and let him get on with the case, but I still think Sherlock intended for John and Mary to make up because he thought John was going to be heartbroken and wanted to fix things for him and give him back his wife. I think Moffat actually does believe that's a completely logical explanation for them getting back together, unfortunately - he does love messed up couples (see DW...I mean, he adores River Song and thinks she and the Doctor are so romantic together.......)

Last edited by Dorothy83 (September 29, 2015 2:32 pm)