BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Alive or Dead?

SandraNM · August 6, 2012 10:11 pm

I think the writers/producers should NOT have let us know that Sherlock was still alive and unharmed at the end of episode 3 or season 2.

We'd know if he were dead if we heard the show was cancelled. (Or they switched to another actor to replace Ben ie his fall required plastic surgery on his face.)

We'd think he was alive anyway. They don't kill off the title character. What would, say, Poirot be without Poirot for example.

But in the meantime Sherlock would sort of be Schrodenger's cat...alive AND dead at the same time.

tee hee hee

Mattlocked · August 6, 2012 10:54 pm

Is it the language or the time...? I don't get your point.

sherlockskitty · August 6, 2012 11:56 pm

well, sandra, if they hadn't let us know that Sherlock was alive, then I think we viewers might not have been as curious or as frustrated as we have been. I think the writers showed it as a plot point. Plus, for those who have not actually read the ACD stories, the writers did what they do best: keep us wanting more. More Sherlock, more explanations, more everything.

veecee · August 7, 2012 12:48 am

Many of us knew he was alive because we know the original stories from reading or other sources. Maybe they thought others would have been confused? For me, it was somehow comforting to see him, even though I knew he wasn't dead.

Arya · August 7, 2012 2:04 am

It makes for such an amazing end of the series/season, too. John's speech, then cut to Sherlock's face, then fade to black

kazza474 · August 7, 2012 2:10 am

SandraNM wrote:
I think the writers/producers should NOT have let us know that Sherlock was still alive and unharmed at the end of episode 3 or season 2.

We'd know if he were dead if we heard the show was cancelled. (Or they switched to another actor to replace Ben ie his fall required plastic surgery on his face.)

We'd think he was alive anyway. They don't kill off the title character. What would, say, Poirot be without Poirot for example.

But in the meantime Sherlock would sort of be Schrodenger's cat...alive AND dead at the same time.

tee hee hee

Oh yes indeed, I see the joke.
Could you imagine the forum if the problems we had to solve included " Is he dead?" !!!
On top of which, Ben would have been hounded & stalked for over a year. People going through his rubbish bins looking for envelopes from Hartswood films, or Moffatt or Gatiss. In fact, they may have all been stalked to death!
Then there'd be tens of thousands of letters 'dumped' on their doorsteps pleading to bring him back ,etc etc.

Then there would be the canon lovers sitting back laughing at the fandom.
Ahhhh, knowledge is bliss!!

Sherlock Holmes · August 7, 2012 10:59 pm

Hm yes, I did wonder if they'd do it that way, because of course at the end of Final Problem we are 100% believing Sherlock is dead (or at least we're supposed to believe that). And yes, we would have known Sherlock was alive as soon as we'd heard there was a Series 3 (and if we'd read the Empty House).

I definitely think it's better that they showed him alive though. It gave us that immediate twist of "how did he do it?" and prompted all the masses of theories. Such a great cliff hanger to show him stood there in the graveyard and all the fandom thinking "But...what...I don't...uh...ARGH!"

And somehow it's a little more heartbreaking to think that we all know he's alive but John doesn't.

kazza474 · August 8, 2012 3:39 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Hm yes, I did wonder if they'd do it that way, because of course at the end of Final Problem we are 100% believing Sherlock is dead (or at least we're supposed to believe that). And yes, we would have known Sherlock was alive as soon as we'd heard there was a Series 3 (and if we'd read the Empty House). ............

.

I think really, it is the curse of the 21st century. It's all been done before; we all know the general 'run of things' as far as cliffhanger endings go. For we 'more matured' ones, we've seen it a zillion times over the last 4 decades.
Nothing these days (even in real life) can happen without a theory attached. In real life we have sceptics everywhere causing pain & trauma with their theories which is very sad.
But I digress. Back in TV land, I will take my hat off to ANYONE who can truly keep such surprise a secret until its 'reveal'. I just cannot ever see it happening again. Sad but true.

hypergreenfrog · August 8, 2012 6:44 am

As you say, most viewers would have assumed - from reading the canon, or from the mere fact that S3 has been commissioned - that he must have survived. But I totally agree that it would have been nice not to KNOW, just to assume.
It would also have left the door open for a wider range of theories about the fall, ie. he could have jumped and only barely survived, and could have spent the next three years recovering.

But I do agree with the boss that this way John's grief is even more heart breaking, because we know it wouldn't be necessary if only...

The Doctor · August 8, 2012 8:02 am

I concur that this wasn't so much about producing a cliffhanger but the quintessential Holmes: we do not really care who committed the crime. The questions is HOW it was done.

Smoggy_London_Air · August 13, 2012 2:40 am

I think it was good that they left it as it was. For canon fans, of course, we would know the truth, but everyone else would panic beyond reason. My family all went practically insane at the sight of him jumping. "THAT'S NOT REAL WAS IT, THAT WAS MORIARTY WASN'T IT, THERE'S GOING TO BE A THIRD SEASON, RIGHT????" I had to reassure them. Think about what it must be like for people without a source on all things Sherlock sitting right there.

Last edited by Smoggy_London_Air (August 13, 2012 2:42 am)

SandraNM · August 13, 2012 5:40 pm

hypergreenfrog wrote:
As you say, most viewers would have assumed - from reading the canon, or from the mere fact that S3 has been commissioned - that he must have survived. But I totally agree that it would have been nice not to KNOW, just to assume.
It would also have left the door open for a wider range of theories about the fall, ie. he could have jumped and only barely survived, and could have spent the next three years recovering.

But I do agree with the boss that this way John's grief is even more heart breaking, because we know it wouldn't be necessary if only...

_______________________________________________
My sentiments also.

If I recall the next "episode" in the book, Dr. Watson was a little surprised and glad to see Holmes alive. That's like the understated Englishman, saying the way Hastings said "I say" to Poriot all the time. SH apologized politely to Dr. W. saying only it was necessary that Watson's reacton had to appear genuine so that he, SH, could finish his quest of catching the rest of Moriarty's gang.

In this TV version, I think, John is going to be mightily pissed-off when Sherlock reappears. Since's he's been trained for combat in the army he's perfectly capable of beating the crap out of Sherlock.

Also, Martin Freeman has been filming 3 Hobbit movies and lined up for the next one, (and possibly another in the middle?) so perhaps we'll see Sherlock solving a crime or two without Watson while Freeman is busy elsewhere.

SandraNM · August 13, 2012 5:51 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
Hm yes, I did wonder if they'd do it that way, because of course at the end of Final Problem we are 100% believing Sherlock is dead (or at least we're supposed to believe that). And yes, we would have known Sherlock was alive as soon as we'd heard there was a Series 3 (and if we'd read the Empty House).

I definitely think it's better that they showed him alive though. It gave us that immediate twist of "how did he do it?" and prompted all the masses of theories. Such a great cliff hanger to show him stood there in the graveyard and all the fandom thinking "But...what...I don't...uh...ARGH!"

And somehow it's a little more heartbreaking to think that we all know he's alive but John doesn't.

Agreed.
hToo, I wonder if some of what John says at the cemetery will be a part of the next episode. Generally, telling SHerlock that he owed him so much. (echo of IOU.)

And John saying, "Please Sherlock. Don't be dead."

But somehow I believe John is not the type of guy that shouts "It's a miracle." He caught himself when he started to get all emotional at the beginning when he spoke of it to his therapist. And also at the cemetary where his voice started to break up. What he did was turn and walk away like a military man.

SandraNM · August 13, 2012 6:01 pm

I can't find the comment again of "Sherlock Holmes" member who mentioned The Empty House. I'm reading my way up to that in the book anthology. But thanks for the tip.

KeepersPrice · August 13, 2012 6:37 pm

SandraNM wrote:
If I recall the next "episode" in the book, Dr. Watson was a little surprised and glad to see Holmes alive. That's like the understated Englishman, saying the way Hastings said "I say" to Poriot all the time. SH apologized politely to Dr. W. saying only it was necessary that Watson's reacton had to appear genuine so that he, SH, could finish his quest of catching the rest of Moriarty's gang.

In this TV version, I think, John is going to be mightily pissed-off when Sherlock reappears. Since's he's been trained for combat in the army he's perfectly capable of beating the crap out of Sherlock.

Also, Martin Freeman has been filming 3 Hobbit movies and lined up for the next one, (and possibly another in the middle?) so perhaps we'll see Sherlock solving a crime or two without Watson while Freeman is busy elsewhere.

In ACD, I'm not sure Watson was 'a little surprised' or 'understated'. A bit more I would say. He fainted dead away when he saw it was Holmes. Holmes had to revive him with brandy and Watson had to reassure himself that Holmes was real by grasping his arms. Kind of emotional as far as the times go I think.

I can see our John punching out Sherlock but am reserving my opinion. There are other ways to express anger or hurt if that is what we think our John will feel when he sees Sherlock again. Moftiss could come up with something quite interesting; but as a Johnlocker I do hope we get some kind of physical contact - whether Sherlock is amenable or not

Also, I've been confused by things I've heard about the Hobbit movie. I heard they are making a trilogy of it - but I thought it was because they had enough film from the filming to divide it that way. Are you saying they are planning additional movies beyond what was just filmed?

The Doctor · August 14, 2012 12:12 am

Yepp, looks like the might throw a Lord of the Rings-appendix in to make it into 3 Hobbit movies. Also, the middle movie centers on Smaug aka Benedict. Now, that's quite some news!!

SandraNM · August 14, 2012 3:20 am

KeepersPrice asked about the Hobbit movies. I'm evidently confused after I saw on IMDb on Martin Freeman's page that one of the Hobbit movies it listed as "announced." So, yes, you're right about only 3 Hobbit movies--two done and only one to go. I think. It also shows that Martin was in several other films recently.

kazza474 · August 14, 2012 4:12 am

SandraNM wrote:
KeepersPrice asked about the Hobbit movies. I'm evidently confused after I saw on IMDb on Martin Freeman's page that one of the Hobbit movies it listed as "announced." So, yes, you're right about only 3 Hobbit movies--two done and only one to go. I think. It also shows that Martin was in several other films recently.

I am not a Hobbit fan but through keeping up with news for here I did read that the two upcoming Hobbit movies were both shot during the epic New Zealand shoot. One for release at the end of this year and one to be released next year. I mean let's face it, they won't have to hunt down more extras and the dwarves or whatever they are won't age, which I assume some of these mythical characters aren't supposed to do, lol.

At least that filming is over & done with, keeping Martin free for other projects, whatever they may be in the future.

SandraNM · August 14, 2012 4:46 pm

I don't think there is a ghost of a chance that Martin would leave Sherlock. He and his agent must know a good thing when they see it.

Seeing the pictures of Hobbit movies, I think Martin is just going to look like John Watson going to a costume party.

Sherlock Holmes · August 15, 2012 5:16 pm

Haha Watson at a costume party - I like it. And I hear Sherlock is going to the same party as a Star Trek character.