BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Thoughts about series 3 as a whole

nakahara · September 22, 2015 8:49 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
But in The Dying Detective Sherlock says: "My dear Watson! I owe you a thousand apologies. ... It was very essential that I should impress Mrs. Hudson with the reality of my condition, since she was to convey it to you, and you in turn to him. You won't be offended, Watson?" And then goes on to praise his medical knowledge. How very different from Teh that is..(I love the story, I was so afraid for Holmes when I first read it..^^)

True, but on the other hand:

Sherlock in TDD submitted John to this thing deliberately, while being able to come with another plan just as well.
Sherlock in TEH didn´t cause the train-car scene on his own. He didn´t set up the bomb there, nor activated it and up to the moment he had found an off-switch, he thought he would be blown up too.

The whole train scene lasted about 2 and half a minute and Sherlock found an off-switch after a minute, maybe? That means he tortured John with fear for less than two minutes. Compare this with Dr. Watson being in fear whole day in TDD.

He aplogised beforehand and on his knees in TEH, so the apology was there, just as in TDD.

Zatoichi wrote:
Yeah, right? @the "child"-thing. Is that "taking the piss" again? I don't know, but what I know is that i don't like it one bit.

You reminded me of my most hated quote from TSOT. "You don´t need me now that you have a real baby..." Barf! It only proves that Moftiss really regressed Sherlock to man-child here.

JP · September 22, 2015 10:33 pm

Oh, I don't know. IMO Sherlock recognizing and admitting that he was acting childish at times is one of the most mature things he did. Plus, as always in the most emotionally charged moments, he or John always retreat into humor. More or less succesfully.

Vhanja · September 23, 2015 8:34 am

nakahara wrote:
But in that case we shouldn´t blame Moftiss for this, but the original author, ACD, for being inconsistent in his work.

I blame both, seeing as Moftiss have made their own version of Sherlock where they draw what they want from canon and make their own stuff where they want. As Moffat has said himself - it's his own Sherlock fanfic in a way.

So if Moftiss had wanted to make their version of Sherlock more consistent, behaviour-wise, they could.

Don't get me wrong, it's not a big deal. And I love pouty Sherlock just as much as I love cruel or fluflfy Sherlock (and to be honest, I was a bit relieved when Sherlock went back to his snarky, pouty and cruel self in HLV after all the fluff and insecurity in TSoT). But it was brought up in this thread, and got me thinking that I agree.

nakahara · September 23, 2015 8:57 am

JP wrote:
Oh, I don't know. IMO Sherlock recognizing and admitting that he was acting childish at times is one of the most mature things he did. Plus, as always in the most emotionally charged moments, he or John always retreat into humor. More or less succesfully.

Of course, I don´t own a patent on truth and the post above was just my opinion on the matter. Still, I remember that this scene terribly disturbed me the first time I watched it, because it implied that Sherlock is a nuisance to John and also (as Zatoichi very nicely put it in her post) that Watsons are parenting him. Awful.

And then they gave us Sherlock mourning his dog as a child, Sherlock being scolded as a child by Mycroft, Watsons and Molly, Sherlock crying like a child right there in HLV.

I hope he does not start playing with teddybears in S4...

Vhanja · September 23, 2015 9:07 am

I didnt' see Sherlock crying as a child in HLV, that was how Mycroft saw him. I saw it more as a picture of Sherlock being scared on the inside (but we never see him cry on the outside in that scene).

I agree, though, that the idea of the Watsons "parenting" Sherlock is awful, that line didn't sit too well with me either. But it is a point that it's a sign of maturity that Sherlock can admit to something being childish.

Zatoichi · September 23, 2015 10:08 am

nakahara wrote:
JP wrote:
Oh, I don't know. IMO Sherlock recognizing and admitting that he was acting childish at times is one of the most mature things he did. Plus, as always in the most emotionally charged moments, he or John always retreat into humor. More or less succesfully.
Of course, I don´t own a patent on truth and the post above was just my opinion on the matter. Still, I remember that this scene terribly disturbed me the first time I watched it, because it implied that Sherlock is a nuisance to John and also (as Zatoichi very nicely put it in her post) that Watsons are parenting him. Awful.

And then they gave us Sherlock mourning his dog as a child, Sherlock being scolded as a child by Mycroft, Watsons and Molly, Sherlock crying like a child right there in HLV.

I hope he does not start playing with teddybears in S4...

He already played "operation"..

It wasn't just the one line about the "real" baby on the way, but before he already said they were going to be great parents with all the experiences with him. That really causes an allergic reaction with me, but I'm glad it can also be seen as a sign of maturity..I might be overreacting. To me it merely sounds like "i was your baby and now you don't want me anymore *sad bambi eyes, John awkwardly looking away*". For an attempt at humour they made too many explicit references to him being infantile before to actually work for me.. But I've already accepted that the whole of TSoT just isn't for me. (And I still think there is a subtle but important diffrence between "childish" and "overly dramatic/negligient of social necessities".. But, ah well. This leads too far away from the original topic anyway.)

nakahara · September 23, 2015 10:25 am

Zatoichi wrote:
nakahara wrote:
I hope he does not start playing with teddybears in S4...

He already played "operation"..

That´s right, thanks for reminding me. So we already had a toy here....

What comes next, I wonder? A pacifier?

Vhanja · September 23, 2015 10:48 am

nakahara wrote:
What comes next, I wonder? A pacifier?

Didn't you know that smoking gives an oral comfort that is similar to a pacifier?

nakahara · September 23, 2015 10:50 am

Vhanja wrote:
nakahara wrote:
What comes next, I wonder? A pacifier?

Didn't you know that smoking gives an oral comfort that is similar to a pacifier?

So Pampers are the only option left, it seems....

tonnaree · September 23, 2015 11:52 am

I would pay money to see Sherlock with a teddy bear.

I"m a bad bad girl.

Vhanja · September 23, 2015 11:56 am

tonnaree wrote:
I would pay money to see Sherlock with a teddy bear.

I"m a bad bad girl.

... and that reminds me of a fic I once read where Sherlock had a teddy bear named Watson. Not even kidding.

tonnaree · September 23, 2015 12:00 pm

I have a teddy bear named Watson.

Vhanja · September 23, 2015 12:00 pm

I know, that's the bear I pictures when I read the fic.

Zatoichi · September 23, 2015 1:27 pm

Vhanja wrote:
nakahara wrote:
What comes next, I wonder? A pacifier?

Didn't you know that smoking gives an oral comfort that is similar to a pacifier?

Ahem, yes, smoking.. exactly what I was thinking. Very.. orally comforting.

(Sorry.. TOPIC!!)

JP · September 23, 2015 1:30 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
To me it merely sounds like "i was your baby and now you don't want me anymore *sad bambi eyes, John awkwardly looking away"

OMG, I have never seen it that way! Not at this point of the story.

To me, the almost obsessive way Sherlock started to make the preparations in TSOT was not only his way to apologize to John and make things good again, but I also saw a bit of a child's fear of being abandoned: it's like "I'll be the best child/friend in the world, please don't leave me alone". And well, IMO, in certain aspects of life Sherlock is a big child. (Plus John often treats him like a child that must be corrected: "... we have discussed that, Sherlock")

But at the wedding, he seems to be all grown up to me. He makes a self-ironic and a bit exagerated remark about himself being parented by Watsons until this point, which in my eyes is everything but childish.

BTW, Not so long ago I was wondering if Sherlock being so "tame" around Mary istn't because Mary behaves a lot like Mrs Holmes. When I look the way Mycroft and Sherlock react to their mother catching them on smoking I certainly see some similarities.

Zatoichi · September 23, 2015 1:45 pm

JP wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
To me it merely sounds like "i was your baby and now you don't want me anymore *sad bambi eyes, John awkwardly looking away"
OMG, I have never seen it that way! Not at this point of the story.

To me, the almost obsessive way Sherlock started to make the preparations in TSOT was not only his way to apologize to John and make things good again, but I also saw a bit of a child's fear of being abandoned: it's like "I'll be the best child/friend in the world, please don't leave me alone". And well, IMO, in certain aspects of life Sherlock is a big child. (Plus John often treats him like a child that must be corrected: "... we have discussed that, Sherlock")

But at the wedding, he seems to be all grown up to me. He makes a self-ironic and a bit exagerated remark about himself being parented by Watsons until this point, which in my eyes is everything but childish.

BTW, Not so long ago I was wondering if Sherlock being so "tame" around Mary istn't because Mary behaves a lot like Mrs Holmes. When I look the way Mycroft and Sherlock react to their mother catching them on smoking I certainly see some similarities.

That goes very much in the direction of my thoughts.. maybe he is already over the "parenting" at that point. I would certainly applaud that. But to me he didn´ t seem too grown-up at the wedding.. if I think at his hurt face when Mycroft made the "Redbeard"-remark, Mycroft lecturing him in his mindpalace, him hitting himself or the exaggerated shocked expression at John´s "drama queen".. so to me this remark seemed like the climax of a succession of instances that show regressed!Sherlock.

I agree about the thoughts of Mary as some kind of a "mother-figure".. which makes everything that happens in HLV so much worse.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 23, 2015 2:00 pm)

tonnaree · September 23, 2015 1:52 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
nakahara wrote:
What comes next, I wonder? A pacifier?

Didn't you know that smoking gives an oral comfort that is similar to a pacifier?
Ahem, yes, smoking.. exactly what I was thinking. Very.. orally comforting.

(Sorry.. TOPIC!!)

I get the feeling he's trying to impress John in this scene.

Dorothy83 · September 23, 2015 1:56 pm

tonnaree wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
Vhanja wrote:

Didn't you know that smoking gives an oral comfort that is similar to a pacifier?
Ahem, yes, smoking.. exactly what I was thinking. Very.. orally comforting.

(Sorry.. TOPIC!!)

I get the feeling he's trying to impress John in this scene.

err....obviously!!!!!!!!

Vhanja · September 23, 2015 2:02 pm

Aaaand another thread that went straight to the gutter.

How many of those do we have now?

mrshouse · September 23, 2015 2:32 pm

You all have filthy minds...

I like that.