BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

kgreen20 · September 19, 2015 3:18 am

Liberty wrote:
But we don't get told that Mary killed "innocents", or that she did it "for money". That's speculation, which may or may not be correct. The only target we see is the same one that Sherlock later feels justified in murdering (I suppose you could argue that he's an innocent in that he didn't directly kill anyone, and I kind of agree - but still, we don't know about the other targets).

"Kind of" is a good phrase. CAM did order John to be kidnapped and put in a bonfire, which could have all too easily resulted in his death. So an innocent, he's not!

kgreen20 · September 19, 2015 3:30 am

Liberty wrote:
I have faith that John will be back at 221B without Mary or a baby. I'm just not sure how they're going to get there.

In all likelihood, Mary and the baby will die.

Zatoichi · September 19, 2015 5:51 am

@Raven: Oh my, I was trying to eat breakfast.. Now I lost my appetite .

Although I don't really fear they will go quite as far as to shift the focus to "The Watsons"-show I had similar concerns.. With Mary providing everything he needs and more for John, Sherlock would be reduced to their quirky aquaintance who delivers the cases and many laughs on his expense *shudders*. But i think the end of HLV balanced that out - or so I strongly hope!

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 6:17 am

Zatoichi wrote:
@Raven: Oh my, I was trying to eat breakfast.. Now I lost my appetite .

Although I don't really fear they will go quite as far as to shift the focus to "The Watsons"-show I had similar concerns.. With Mary providing everything he needs and more for John, Sherlock would be reduced to their quirky aquaintance who delivers the cases and many laughs on his expense *shudders*. But i think the end of HLV balanced that out - or so I strongly hope!

Pat, pat, pat--- sorry. (Sheepish, sickly grin)

The thing is-- though I do joke about it-- I could see Mofftiss doing one episode like this -- sort of a Look what's happened to Watson. That's if they decide to stick with the "John really forgave and forgot, and loves Mary" plotline.) And I suspect they're actually not quite sure what they want to do-- yet. Suppose their plotlines are actually mutable? That they might change direction on a whim, at the last minute? It would explain a lot.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 19, 2015 6:20 am)

Zatoichi · September 19, 2015 6:43 am

Don't worry.. i am trying to lose weight anyway ^^.

Their commentary sounded a lot as if their plotlines aren't written in stone.. Oh Janine was great so we included her again and so on. It really would explain a lot, although i can't really imagine how this is supposed to work out with such a huge production. Probably there are huge masses of money and people that would need to be set in motion last minute?

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 6:48 am

Well, there are all those hours and hours of film that never got used.... once you get enough source material-- you can mix and match it however you want. A lot of music recoding is done this way. Also a lot of videos.

Vhanja · September 19, 2015 7:28 am

Zatoichi wrote:
With Mary providing everything he needs and more for John, Sherlock would be reduced to their quirky aquaintance who delivers the cases and many laughs on his expense *shudders*.

I found it clear from S3 that Mary doesn't provide John with everything he needs.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 7:30 am

Vhanja wrote:
Zatoichi wrote:
With Mary providing everything he needs and more for John, Sherlock would be reduced to their quirky aquaintance who delivers the cases and many laughs on his expense *shudders*.
I found it clear from S3 that Mary doesn't provide John with everything he needs.

How so?

Vhanja · September 19, 2015 7:32 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
How so?

The fact that while being newly-wed and starting his new life with his pregnant wife, he lies in bed dreaming of Sherlock, thinking of Sherlock, disappointed when Sherlock is not at his door, and being generally miserable at home.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 7:33 am

Vhanja wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
How so?
The fact that while being newly-wed and starting his new life with his pregnant wife, he lies in bed dreaming of Sherlock, thinking of Sherlock, disappointed when Sherlock is not at his door, and being generally miserable at home.

But after he knows that Mary shot Sherlock-- after Appledore-- he's with Mary!

Vhanja · September 19, 2015 7:35 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
But after he knows that Mary shot Sherlock-- after Appledore-- he's with Mary!

Yes, but that doesn't mean she provides him with all he needs.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 7:39 am

Vhanja wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
But after he knows that Mary shot Sherlock-- after Appledore-- he's with Mary!
Yes, but that doesn't mean she provides him with all he needs.

I agree-- however, John may be trying very hard to believe that she provides him with all he needs...

Vhanja · September 19, 2015 7:43 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I agree-- however, John may be trying very hard to believe that she provides him with all he needs...

Could be. All though he didn't try for more than a month last time, before storming the crack den and returning to work with Sherlock.

Zatoichi · September 19, 2015 8:13 am

It could be argued that now Mary's true nature is revealed she provides the danger and excitement he missed in his peaceful married life.. Hence the "don't worry, I'll keep him in trouble for you"-comment. But I really hope I'm reading too much into this.

Vhanja · September 19, 2015 8:19 am

I really doubt that. John didn't exactly look happy about Mary being an assassin. Not the momnet he heard it, and not six months later when he had time to really think it through.

"But she wasn't supposed to be like that". He never chose Mary as a Sherlock replacement. As I see it, Mary was his way into leading a normal life, something different from the life he had with Sherlock. After Sherlock "died" he went back to job, apartment and girlfriend. Not to seek out some other dangerous life somewhere.

Last edited by Vhanja (September 19, 2015 8:20 am)

Liberty · September 19, 2015 8:35 am

Mary can't provide excitement and danger through her job - she can't really take him out assassinating. Hopefully.

I do think that although it's completely unfair to blame John for being attracted to Mary because she was dangerous, I do think it's possible that she could have come across as different, and that there was something elusive and exciting about her that attracted him and made him fall for her. But I think there is a special connection with Sherlock that he doesn't get with Mary. Even if Mary was reformed and took him out solving cases, I don't think it would be the same.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 6:35 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
It could be argued that now Mary's true nature is revealed she provides the danger and excitement he missed in his peaceful married life.. Hence the "don't worry, I'll keep him in trouble for you"-comment. But I really hope I'm reading too much into this.

Me, too.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 6:40 pm

Well, wait. One minute we're saying that John really does love and forgive Mary, wants to be a good husband-- but now, we're saying that John is unhappy, because he doesn't really fancy being married to an asassin-- (and now we're using that word, when earlier people had trouble acknowledging it) and that John is not getting from her what he gets from Sherlock. But, at the same time, we've been saying that Mary fufills all John's needs and he and Mary and the Baby are a going to be a loving family. And, again-- John was ready to let Sherlock go off to his death, in order to save Mary.

He was ready to sacrifice Sherlock for Mary, full stop.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 19, 2015 6:40 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 6:42 pm

Liberty wrote:
Mary can't provide excitement and danger through her job - she can't really take him out assassinating. Hopefully.

I do think that although it's completely unfair to blame John for being attracted to Mary because she was dangerous, I do think it's possible that she could have come across as different, and that there was something elusive and exciting about her that attracted him and made him fall for her. But I think there is a special connection with Sherlock that he doesn't get with Mary. Even if Mary was reformed and took him out solving cases, I don't think it would be the same.

Why? We didn't see what John saw in her before TEH. How do we know she didn't take him hang-gliding, or out to the gun range, or skateboarding, or climbing at REI? What if, "You DID see that, and you married me", actually alludes to their activities before they got married?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 19, 2015 6:43 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · September 19, 2015 6:53 pm

Here's a VERRRRRY interesting Meta on Mary-- (Link below)
"Mary shot Sherlock. At the time, it was something extremely out of character. Soon after we, the audience, and Sherlock begin a frantic attempt at rationalizing this.

Having been given a central Sherlock theme in ASiP, ‘bitterness is a paralytic, love is a much more vicious motivator’, we can then begin to process Mary’s actions through this filter. The first theory then becomes, she did this out of character thing because of love, her love of John. But, there are a lot of problems with this assessment. Sherlock’s version from the Baker St confrontation is very thin and doesn’t hold up against even basic scrutiny. Without love as Mary’s motivator we’re left with the idea that she’s just doing her job, it’s nothing personal. Except, this master manipulator, master of disguise can’t hide her smile when she sees Sherlock. Before and after shooting him, her expression is a barely repressed smile.

So… Where does that leave us? Well, she could be some sort of sadist: taking pleasure in murdering others.

Or, she could be doing this out of love but not out of love for John."

http://just-sort-of-happened.tumblr.com/post/129429554955/mary-loves-moriarty

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 19, 2015 6:53 pm)