BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's evovlement throughout the show

SusiGo · September 16, 2015 10:54 am

Just one point, JP: I do not think John is just panicking about becoming a father. If you look closely at the scene, he is surprised but happy, grabs Sherlock's neck, smiles, and then Sherlock's faces changes and John suddenly seems awkward and looks away. IMO he cannot deal with what he is reading in Sherlock's face, i.e. the realisation that John with a family will be definitely lost to Sherlock. The same goes for the moment when Sherlock mentions the dancing lessons. John again becomes uneasy and reacts with a bad joke, and then we see Sherlock's hurt expression.
I think he is surprised about the pregnancy news but accepts it quickly. But he cannot cope with what he reads in Sherlock's face.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 10:59 am

I don't even think John is panicking? I think he's just a bit all over the place after Sherlock's return and in the run up to the wedding, I feel like he really really wants to go back to some sort of normality and feel like they can finally be happy and he can have the 'balanced' life he thinks he should have. So, of course he would want his best friend to organise the wedding, and yes in his desire to feel 'normal' for once he is a bit blind to what's actually going on (and this includes the news about Mary's peculiar family situation - which Sherlock points out - and Mary's reaction to CAM's telegram for example - he doesn't even wonder who the heck that is??)

But in regards to the baby. he doesn't seem like he's panicking at all to me. Mary is, but John is just happy...

Vhanja · September 16, 2015 1:11 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Just one point, JP: I do not think John is just panicking about becoming a father. If you look closely at the scene, he is surprised but happy, grabs Sherlock's neck, smiles, and then Sherlock's faces changes and John suddenly seems awkward and looks away. IMO he cannot deal with what he is reading in Sherlock's face, i.e. the realisation that John with a family will be definitely lost to Sherlock. The same goes for the moment when Sherlock mentions the dancing lessons. John again becomes uneasy and reacts with a bad joke, and then we see Sherlock's hurt expression.
I think he is surprised about the pregnancy news but accepts it quickly. But he cannot cope with what he reads in Sherlock's face.

I agree with this. I don't think he is panicking over the pregnancy, but is a little suprised and overwhelmed by it as it was quite unexpected. (Of course, there is the question on how a mature doctor and a nurse can end up with a surprise pregnancy, but I guess it can happen to everyone).

I agree that what makes him uncomfortable is the realisation of what this means for Sherlock (or at least what Sherlock is feeling at the moment), and that right then and there, there is nothing John can do about it.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 2:49 pm

Vhanja - haah yes, on a side note - Mary's face after finding out she's pregnant - she's totally and utterly panicking and not in a good way, and I really don't know how would that happen, I mean....gurl, if you've been fooling around and forgot some equipment you surely know this could happen

Yitzock · September 16, 2015 3:11 pm

If it's going to take us off-topic I don't mean to throw us way off, but I have to add that it's not beyond the realm of possibility. Contraception is not 100% effective and people can have kids without meaning to. (personal example, my cousin was born because my aunt and uncle were stuck at the location of their honeymoon because of 9/11, but they were not really ready to have a child that soon).
Also, as far as her reaction goes, I don't think it's too out of the ordinary. Her initial reaction is happy, and we see her smile again between the looks of concern. Would it not be normal for someone to experience mixed emotions upon discovering they're pregnant, esepecially if it's on their wedding day which is already quite emotional. Though it's not a personal experience of mine, I'd expect finding out one is pregnant would be a mix of emotions, because even if you want a child you would still be nervous about it. Also, it's been revealed to her as a deduction, which is not exactly breaking it to them gently.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 3:18 pm

You're completely right, but - I guess it felt weird to me because her reaction and John's are so completely different. John is genuinely happy and enthusiastic, Mary is terrified, snappish, and super worried. And since she's not a real character, meaning that yes she can be realistically thrown, but her being *that* worried makes me think they're telling us something (either that, or Amanda's reaction was a bit exaggerated - which I doubt..)

SusiGo · September 16, 2015 3:19 pm

We are very far from the topic here but there is of course John lookalike David. The shoulder to cry on. I always wondered why Mary needed a shoulder while being happily engaged.

Vhanja · September 16, 2015 3:19 pm

I didn't find John purely happy and enthusiastic about the child, at least not immediately. His gut reaction seems to be that he's shocked and overwhelmed. I think both of their reactions are very realistic.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 3:26 pm

SusiGo wrote:
We are very far from the topic here but there is of course John lookalike David. The shoulder to cry on. I always wondered why Mary needed a shoulder while being happily engaged.

Maybe when John got angry when he found Mary's ninja outfit and Mary had to tell him it was for a cosplay at ComicCon

SusiGo · September 16, 2015 3:29 pm

mrshouse · September 16, 2015 3:29 pm

Liberty · September 16, 2015 3:55 pm

Ity's perfectly possible for (pregnancy) accidents to happen to doctors and nurses in real life, but it's kind of odd in fiction, given John and Mary's professions. Both of them would be dealing with contraception as part of their jobs, and John would be used to seeing pregnant women, doing postnatal checks, etc. This is part of their specialist field. John even seems put out that he didn't pick up on the signs himself. My guess is that Mary would be using a long-acting contraceptive unless there was a reason not to, and they're pretty reliable. (Perhaps pregnancy would have been a risk in her previous job too, so she could have been already quite knowledgeable and prepared). I do feel a bit disappointed, fiction-wise, that we're not given an explanation of what went "wrong". (But in real life ... or course it could happen. People can be very knowledgeable in a field and still fail to practice perfectly in their private lives - look at all the GPs and nurses who drink a bit too muich!).

I don't think John's lack of attention to Sherlock isn't too bad there (and I'm one who maybe has a tendency to judge John more harshly than Sherlock). It is his wedding day, and he has only just found out that he's going to have a baby. I can understand that occupying his mind to the extent that concern for Sherlock isn't at the forefront.

Last edited by Liberty (September 16, 2015 4:51 pm)

SusiGo · September 16, 2015 4:03 pm

As I said before, IMO the pregnancy deduction or the pregnancy as such is not what bothers John but Sherlock's obvious distress. His face is very open, he does not even try to hide his emotions. And this is what John finds difficult and what he cannot cope with. Therefore the cheap joke about the closes curtains and Mrs Hudson coming in. This is not about the pregnancy but about Sherlock's feelings.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 4:04 pm

Perhaps the pregnancy thing is only due to Mofttis being men and not knowing exactly how female contraceptives work

JP · September 16, 2015 5:03 pm

Well, we seem to have quite different head canons. Which is fine.
My picture of John is not that positive in TSOT. Even if he sees Sherlock's concern and fear of being left behind he cannot react to it properly. Maybe he doesn't see a problem, because he really thinks nothing will change. It's Mary who sends the boys to solve a case, and seems much more sensitive through the whole episode (despite her possible hidden agenda).

Of course John would want his best friend to be a best man. But not if this friend is Sherlock. I would never do this to him. I would ask if he would attend the ceremony and be happy as hell if he said yes.
Personally I can hardly imagine something more horrible than having to organize a wedding... but it's me.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 5:11 pm

But then that should show you how much Sherlock means to John, if John couldn't see anyone else doing the job? Perhaps a little insensitive on his part given Sherlock doesn't like that stuff, but remember John is rather all over the place and preoccupied (in a good way) with so many things. It's a very busy time in his life and he feels like for once things are going well, so he's kinda not thinking too much.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 16, 2015 6:56 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Just one point, JP: I do not think John is just panicking about becoming a father. If you look closely at the scene, he is surprised but happy, grabs Sherlock's neck, smiles, and then Sherlock's faces changes and John suddenly seems awkward and looks away. IMO he cannot deal with what he is reading in Sherlock's face, i.e. the realisation that John with a family will be definitely lost to Sherlock. The same goes for the moment when Sherlock mentions the dancing lessons. John again becomes uneasy and reacts with a bad joke, and then we see Sherlock's hurt expression.
I think he is surprised about the pregnancy news but accepts it quickly. But he cannot cope with what he reads in Sherlock's face.

I agree.

And there's really nothing ambiguous about whether John and Mary were panicking-- they actually used the words!

And, err--- John and Mary are Medical Professionals-- and Mary is a bit old to have an unplanned pregnancy-- it's risky-- all I'll say is that it creates a real "standing around shaking one's head in befuddlement" moment.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 16, 2015 6:57 pm

Dorothy83 wrote:
Perhaps the pregnancy thing is only due to Mofttis being men and not knowing exactly how female contraceptives work

Fist Pump!!! Dang. That was a good one.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 16, 2015 6:59 pm

SusiGo wrote:
As I said before, IMO the pregnancy deduction or the pregnancy as such is not what bothers John but Sherlock's obvious distress. His face is very open, he does not even try to hide his emotions. And this is what John finds difficult and what he cannot cope with. Therefore the cheap joke about the closes curtains and Mrs Hudson coming in. This is not about the pregnancy but about Sherlock's feelings.

Do you think that part of that might be John's...recalcitrance when it comes to seeing Sherlock as a "human being"? He seems very resitant to it-- and the whole season has John head spinning due to being confronted with Sherlock's very apparent human-ness.

Vhanja · September 16, 2015 7:22 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Do you think that part of that might be John's...recalcitrance when it comes to seeing Sherlock as a "human being"? He seems very resitant to it-- and the whole season has John head spinning due to being confronted with Sherlock's very apparent human-ness.

I don't see John being relunctant to seing Sherlock as a "human being", seeing as he said those words exactly at the gravestone scene. ("The most human human being I've ever known...").

I can sort of understand John in that scene. I mean - what was he supposed to do? It was in the middle of their wedding, people were dancing, it was probably expected that the wife and groom were going to join and as well in the party bit of the wedding. "We can't all just stand around here talking", as Sherlock puts it himself. It's neither the time nor the place for any long discusion about this (not that Sherlock and John would ever do something as simple as talk about their feelings and issues anyway...).