Like I said, tonnaree, it doesn't really matter too much, after all, whether before or after, with that little time and no consideration given.

Again, even if she did apologise and even if it was sincere, if she then goes and exhibits the same kind of antisocial, violent and threatening behaviour by sneaking out in Sherlock’s room in the darkness and singsonging a threat to him, that invalidates whatever apology or regret she might have felt earlier.
Why couldn’t she go see him at the hospital and ask (or even beg) him to not say anything, explained things to him or told him that she was going to explain? I am 100% sure that Sherlock would have listened to her – he is curious and did himself say that he wanted to help her, so I am sure he would have held off in telling John. I think this would have worked much better than threatening him in the dark like a Disney witch.
 
Instead, by threatening him she basically ensured that he would find a way to tell John (like he did), because she gave him the impression that she was always going to threaten or even hurt him again to ensure his continued silence.
 
(as a side note: I *know* why Moffat decided to have her threaten Sherlock – from a storyline point of view that increased the suspance – if he had her act all weepy and confess everything to Sherlock then, the second half of the episode would have been pointless. But if we forget the screenwriting POV and just concentrate on whether Mary was sincere and should be forgiven, then the above is what I wonder.)
 

Dorothy83 wrote:

Again, even if she did apologise and even if it was sincere, if she then goes and exhibits the same kind of antisocial, violent and threatening behaviour by sneaking out in Sherlock’s room in the darkness and singsonging a threat to him, that invalidates whatever apology or regret she might have felt earlier.
Why couldn’t she go see him at the hospital and ask (or even beg) him to not say anything, explained things to him or told him that she was going to explain? I am 100% sure that Sherlock would have listened to her – he is curious and did himself say that he wanted to help her, so I am sure he would have held off in telling John. I think this would have worked much better than threatening him in the dark like a Disney witch.
 
Instead, by threatening him she basically ensured that he would find a way to tell John (like he did), because she gave him the impression that she was always going to threaten or even hurt him again to ensure his continued silence.
 
(as a side note: I *know* why Moffat decided to have her threaten Sherlock – from a storyline point of view that increased the suspance – if he had her act all weepy and confess everything to Sherlock then, the second half of the episode would have been pointless. But if we forget the screenwriting POV and just concentrate on whether Mary was sincere and should be forgiven, then the above is what I wonder.)
 

I wrote my own speculations of what might have been going on in her head in the second post of this thread. That is under the assumption that all of what we see on screen is real and there is no planting, so behind the scenes plot from anyone, just what we are given on screen.
 

Lola Red wrote:

Dorothy83 wrote:

Again, even if she did apologise and even if it was sincere, if she then goes and exhibits the same kind of antisocial, violent and threatening behaviour by sneaking out in Sherlock’s room in the darkness and singsonging a threat to him, that invalidates whatever apology or regret she might have felt earlier.
Why couldn’t she go see him at the hospital and ask (or even beg) him to not say anything, explained things to him or told him that she was going to explain? I am 100% sure that Sherlock would have listened to her – he is curious and did himself say that he wanted to help her, so I am sure he would have held off in telling John. I think this would have worked much better than threatening him in the dark like a Disney witch.
 
Instead, by threatening him she basically ensured that he would find a way to tell John (like he did), because she gave him the impression that she was always going to threaten or even hurt him again to ensure his continued silence.
 
(as a side note: I *know* why Moffat decided to have her threaten Sherlock – from a storyline point of view that increased the suspance – if he had her act all weepy and confess everything to Sherlock then, the second half of the episode would have been pointless. But if we forget the screenwriting POV and just concentrate on whether Mary was sincere and should be forgiven, then the above is what I wonder.)
 

I wrote my own speculations of what might have been going on in her head in the second post of this thread. That is under the assumption that all of what we see on screen is real and there is no planting, so behind the scenes plot from anyone, just what we are given on screen.
 

I just read your post and you do certainly make sense, however, the way I see it: a trained assassin with most certainly years of experience and used to read people (as the show tells us) to know how to use them for her own gain or to find out the information she needs would have not let herself freak out to that extent that she resorts to threatening somebody who she allegedly has sentiments of friendship towards.
Mary knew that Sherlock was going to help her. Mary had no reason to think that Sherlock would have just handed her over.
 
And even if somehow she knew Sherlock so little that she thought he might, there is no way she could have thought that threatening him that way would have ensured his silence. No way. Yes, it was a stalling tactic. But she must have known Sherlock wouldn’t have been scared by it?? If I had been in her situation, I would have thought the best option would have been talking to him at the hospital (when the danger of John finding her in a compromising position was no longer present) and asking him to help – which included not telling john (at least for the moment). Sherlock would have listened because Sherlock told her he was going to help. He flat out told her.
 
So, like I said – if we forget screenwriting requirements - the fact that Mary carried on with her ‘psychopathic’ behaviour (and to be sure, I am using this term loosely!) and the fact that she chose to threaten him rather than to ask for his help even though the latter was also an option makes me feel like she didn’t really regret what she did, and that, sentiment or not, she was ready to further harm Sherlock (physically or psychologically) for her own gain. A thought which, as you can understand, does nothing to help me stop despising her.
 

Dorothy83 wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

Dorothy83 wrote:

Again, even if she did apologise and even if it was sincere, if she then goes and exhibits the same kind of antisocial, violent and threatening behaviour by sneaking out in Sherlock’s room in the darkness and singsonging a threat to him, that invalidates whatever apology or regret she might have felt earlier.
Why couldn’t she go see him at the hospital and ask (or even beg) him to not say anything, explained things to him or told him that she was going to explain? I am 100% sure that Sherlock would have listened to her – he is curious and did himself say that he wanted to help her, so I am sure he would have held off in telling John. I think this would have worked much better than threatening him in the dark like a Disney witch.
 
Instead, by threatening him she basically ensured that he would find a way to tell John (like he did), because she gave him the impression that she was always going to threaten or even hurt him again to ensure his continued silence.
 
(as a side note: I *know* why Moffat decided to have her threaten Sherlock – from a storyline point of view that increased the suspance – if he had her act all weepy and confess everything to Sherlock then, the second half of the episode would have been pointless. But if we forget the screenwriting POV and just concentrate on whether Mary was sincere and should be forgiven, then the above is what I wonder.)
 

I wrote my own speculations of what might have been going on in her head in the second post of this thread. That is under the assumption that all of what we see on screen is real and there is no planting, so behind the scenes plot from anyone, just what we are given on screen.
 

I just read your post and you do certainly make sense, however, the way I see it: a trained assassin with most certainly years of experience and used to read people (as the show tells us) to know how to use them for her own gain or to find out the information she needs would have not let herself freak out to that extent that she resorts to threatening somebody who she allegedly has sentiments of friendship towards.
Mary knew that Sherlock was going to help her. Mary had no reason to think that Sherlock would have just handed her over.
 
And even if somehow she knew Sherlock so little that she thought he might, there is no way she could have thought that threatening him that way would have ensured his silence. No way. Yes, it was a stalling tactic. But she must have known Sherlock wouldn’t have been scared by it?? If I had been in her situation, I would have thought the best option would have been talking to him at the hospital (when the danger of John finding her in a compromising position was no longer present) and asking him to help – which included not telling john (at least for the moment). Sherlock would have listened because Sherlock told her he was going to help. He flat out told her.
 
So, like I said – if we forget screenwriting requirements - the fact that Mary carried on with her ‘psychopathic’ behaviour (and to be sure, I am using this term loosely!) and the fact that she chose to threaten him rather than to ask for his help even though the latter was also an option makes me feel like she didn’t really regret what she did, and that, sentiment or not, she was ready to further harm Sherlock (physically or psychologically) for her own gain. A thought which, as you can understand, does nothing to help me stop despising her.
 

Our interpretations differ in a very important point. You think Mary knew Sherlock would help her, while I think she did misjudge him and did not think he would actually help her, even though he told her he would. That has great implications for the further interpretation of her actions. From my point of view she is still torn between trying to protect her secret (and possibly herself) and sentiment (“what does is tell you when an assassin cannot shoot straight? It tells you they are not really trying”) until the reveal in Leinster Gardens, which makes her highly dangerous once she worked herself into a corner. For me, then Sherlock’s “We can trust Mary” and all his sacrifices which lead to John being left behind with Mary make sense.
I would be very interested in your theory about the later points, if you’d wish to share them here.
 

Lola Red wrote:

 For me, then Sherlock’s “We can trust Mary” and all his sacrifices which lead to John being left behind with Mary make sense.
I would be very interested in your theory about the later points, if you’d wish to share them here.
 

But Sherlock does not trust Mary. If he did, he would never escape from hospital an almost bleed to death in an effort to unmask her in front of John. If he really did believe this was surgery, she saved his life, she likes him etc., he would have no problem to contact her from hospital and speak to her /soothe her. Still, it was just the opposite - he had scary dreams and visions about Mary while hospitalised, he did everything in his power to unmask her in front of John, even at the cost of his health and his life.
 

Lola Red wrote:

Dorothy83 wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

I wrote my own speculations of what might have been going on in her head in the second post of this thread. That is under the assumption that all of what we see on screen is real and there is no planting, so behind the scenes plot from anyone, just what we are given on screen.
 

I just read your post and you do certainly make sense, however, the way I see it: a trained assassin with most certainly years of experience and used to read people (as the show tells us) to know how to use them for her own gain or to find out the information she needs would have not let herself freak out to that extent that she resorts to threatening somebody who she allegedly has sentiments of friendship towards.
Mary knew that Sherlock was going to help her. Mary had no reason to think that Sherlock would have just handed her over.
 
And even if somehow she knew Sherlock so little that she thought he might, there is no way she could have thought that threatening him that way would have ensured his silence. No way. Yes, it was a stalling tactic. But she must have known Sherlock wouldn’t have been scared by it?? If I had been in her situation, I would have thought the best option would have been talking to him at the hospital (when the danger of John finding her in a compromising position was no longer present) and asking him to help – which included not telling john (at least for the moment). Sherlock would have listened because Sherlock told her he was going to help. He flat out told her.
 
So, like I said – if we forget screenwriting requirements - the fact that Mary carried on with her ‘psychopathic’ behaviour (and to be sure, I am using this term loosely!) and the fact that she chose to threaten him rather than to ask for his help even though the latter was also an option makes me feel like she didn’t really regret what she did, and that, sentiment or not, she was ready to further harm Sherlock (physically or psychologically) for her own gain. A thought which, as you can understand, does nothing to help me stop despising her.
 

Our interpretations differ in a very important point. You think Mary knew Sherlock would help her, while I think she did misjudge him and did not think he would actually help her, even though he told her he would. That has great implications for the further interpretation of her actions. From my point of view she is still torn between trying to protect her secret (and possibly herself) and sentiment (“what does is tell you when an assassin cannot shoot straight? It tells you they are not really trying”) until the reveal in Leinster Gardens, which makes her highly dangerous once she worked herself into a corner. For me, then Sherlock’s “We can trust Mary” and all his sacrifices which lead to John being left behind with Mary make sense.
I would be very interested in your theory about the later points, if you’d wish to share them here.
 

but why couldn’t she believe him? I mean – that’s what he does. For work. Everyday. She knows –and  in fact, that’s what someone with her problem would have done – consult him. Lady Smallwood had the same problem as her, and consulted Sherlock. I know Mary didn’t know this, but I am struggling to understand why she wouldn’t believe him. Someone like her, someone who isn’t a scared, blushing and crying little thing, but rather an intelligent woman used to finding the best tactic to solve situations. It seems stupid to me that she wouldn’t use Sherlock this time. And not only that that’s his job – he was practically begging her to let him help her.
 
I really struggle to accept that she just didn’t believe him – to me, for all the sentiment etc, she just went back to her true nature which is that of a killer who refuses to trust anyone regardless of their motives or regardless of what she knows or feels about them. A killer who is ruthless and ready to end the life of anyone who could stop her achieving what she wants. How can I like someone like that?
 
In other words: I understand she was backed into a corner and desperate to save her life and her world, but based on what I know about her I struggle to justify her behaviour in any way other than that’s what she is – a selfish person who shot Sherlock and kept acting selfishly and violently even though she had the option not to. 

Plus - she surely didn't believe that threatening Sherlock was going to keep him from telling John, or John from ever finding out the truth, did she? What was her plan, just keep threatening him forever? I think not. I think she was prepared to kill him eventually, sentiment or not, because even if Magnussen got out of the picture Sherlock still knew. So yeah - yet another thought that doesn't really help me to like her.
 
Ps what other points? I’m at work and I’m trying to keep up with the conversation so sorry if I’m slow
 

Last edited by Dorothy83 (September 16, 2015 2:44 pm)

Dorothy83 wrote:

Lola Red wrote:

Dorothy83 wrote:

I just read your post and you do certainly make sense, however, the way I see it: a trained assassin with most certainly years of experience and used to read people (as the show tells us) to know how to use them for her own gain or to find out the information she needs would have not let herself freak out to that extent that she resorts to threatening somebody who she allegedly has sentiments of friendship towards.
Mary knew that Sherlock was going to help her. Mary had no reason to think that Sherlock would have just handed her over.
 
And even if somehow she knew Sherlock so little that she thought he might, there is no way she could have thought that threatening him that way would have ensured his silence. No way. Yes, it was a stalling tactic. But she must have known Sherlock wouldn’t have been scared by it?? If I had been in her situation, I would have thought the best option would have been talking to him at the hospital (when the danger of John finding her in a compromising position was no longer present) and asking him to help – which included not telling john (at least for the moment). Sherlock would have listened because Sherlock told her he was going to help. He flat out told her.
 
So, like I said – if we forget screenwriting requirements - the fact that Mary carried on with her ‘psychopathic’ behaviour (and to be sure, I am using this term loosely!) and the fact that she chose to threaten him rather than to ask for his help even though the latter was also an option makes me feel like she didn’t really regret what she did, and that, sentiment or not, she was ready to further harm Sherlock (physically or psychologically) for her own gain. A thought which, as you can understand, does nothing to help me stop despising her.
 

Our interpretations differ in a very important point. You think Mary knew Sherlock would help her, while I think she did misjudge him and did not think he would actually help her, even though he told her he would. That has great implications for the further interpretation of her actions. From my point of view she is still torn between trying to protect her secret (and possibly herself) and sentiment (“what does is tell you when an assassin cannot shoot straight? It tells you they are not really trying”) until the reveal in Leinster Gardens, which makes her highly dangerous once she worked herself into a corner. For me, then Sherlock’s “We can trust Mary” and all his sacrifices which lead to John being left behind with Mary make sense.
I would be very interested in your theory about the later points, if you’d wish to share them here.
 

but why couldn’t she believe him? I mean – that’s what he does. For work. Everyday. She knows –and  in fact, that’s what someone with her problem would have done – consult him. Lady Smallwood had the same problem as her, and consulted Sherlock. I know Mary didn’t know this, but I am struggling to understand why she wouldn’t believe him. Someone like her, someone who isn’t a scared, blushing and crying little thing, but rather an intelligent woman used to finding the best tactic to solve situations. It seems stupid to me that she wouldn’t use Sherlock this time. And not only that that’s his job – he was practically begging her to let him help her.
 
I really struggle to accept that she just didn’t believe him – to me, for all the sentiment etc, she just went back to her true nature which is that of a killer who refuses to trust anyone regardless of their motives or regardless of what she knows or feels about them. A killer who is ruthless and ready to end the life of anyone who could stop her achieving what she wants. How can I like someone like that?
 
In other words: I understand she was backed into a corner and desperate to save her life and her world, but based on what I know about her I struggle to justify her behaviour in any way other than that’s what she is – a selfish person who shot Sherlock and kept acting selfishly and violently even though she had the option not to. 

Plus - she surely didn't believe that threatening Sherlock was going to keep him from telling John, or John from ever finding out the truth, did she? What was her plan, just keep threatening him forever? I think not. I think she was prepared to kill him eventually, sentiment or not, because even if Magnussen got out of the picture Sherlock still knew. So yeah - yet another thought that doesn't really help me to like her.
 
Ps what other points? I’m at work and I’m trying to keep up with the conversation so sorry if I’m slow
 

You are right; it seems foolish not to ask Sherlock for help, which is actually why I think she thought he wouldn’t help her. I think uncovering her past is the one thing she wants to avoid, at all costs. Sherlock is not “one of the angles”, but he is “on the side of the angles”, so I could understand that she might have had doubts about him accepting her past and helping her avoid the consequences.
 
The other points I was talking about:
Telling John to trust Mary and taking her on as a client
Confronting CAM using Mycroft’s laptop as bait (threatening Mycroft’s work)
Killing CAM risking long term imprisonment and/or exile while leaving John behind with Mary at his side with no guaranty ever to return
 
I’m looking forward to your thoughts about this, but don’t get into trouble at work for it
 

I NEED S4.

I need it with the white hot fire of a thousand suns.

Yes.