BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's evovlement throughout the show

nakahara · September 15, 2015 9:38 pm

I think that he can.

JP · September 15, 2015 9:43 pm

He doesn't look too happy in that scene. More like wanting to run away :D

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 9:43 pm

JP wrote:
He probably was brooding over this "wo people I care the most" line for days and nights before he decided to visit Sherlock.

I don't think so. Because as I view that scene, John never intented on having to spell it out to Sherlock. He starts by saying "So, best man... what do you think?" Which basically means - "what do you think about being my best man?"

But no matter how much John hints at it, Sherlock doesn't get it. And only then John has to literally spell it out.

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 9:45 pm

nakahara wrote:
Personally, I´m not so sure Sherlock has such low self-esteem where John is concerned. And as I pointed out, Sherlock overheard John´s speech in TRF (later confirmed by John in TEH) - he can´t have any doubts that John is his friend.

But that's what he says in his speech. (Not that he doubts that John is his friend, but that he never thought he would be anyone's best friend (and thus never thought he would be chosen to be anyone's best man).

It's also clear from the scene itself, where Sherlock in shock actually has to ask John if he really consideres him to be his best friend.

nakahara · September 15, 2015 9:48 pm

JP wrote:
He doesn't look too happy in that scene. More like wanting to run away :D

Yes, but still - unless he takes Lestrade´s behaviour for some mysterious hugging fetish, he must know it comes from affection (and the same affection is demonstrated at the beginning of TSOT). So he must not imagine being friends with someone - he has physical proof of somebody´s friendship.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 15, 2015 9:51 pm

See-- this is where character continutiy becomes important. He knows he's John's friend, but doesn feel he's worthy of being anyone's friend, but he should just get it psychically, but he goes into shock when John calls him his best friend, but he's a sociopath, he's not a sociopath--- (starts tearing at dreadlocks and gnashing teeth)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 15, 2015 9:52 pm)

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 9:56 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
See-- this is where character continutiy becomes important. He knows he's John's friend, but doesn feel he's worthy of being anyone's friend, but he should just get it psychically, but he goes into shock when John calls him his best friend, but he's a sociopath, he's not a sociopath--- (starts tearing at dreadlocks and gnashing teeth)

I think he says he doesn't think he's worthy of being anyone's "best friend". I don't think Sherlock ever doubted the friendship of John or Lestrade. But I think he didn't realise how close to John he really was.

As for the sosiopath-thing, for me that was clearly only a wishful facade he got from Mycroft to protect himself.

nakahara · September 15, 2015 10:00 pm

That´s true - the scene in TSOT seems to stress that they are speaking about being "the best friend", not merely a "friend".

Zatoichi · September 15, 2015 10:14 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
See-- this is where character continutiy becomes important. He knows he's John's friend, but doesn feel he's worthy of being anyone's friend, but he should just get it psychically, but he goes into shock when John calls him his best friend, but he's a sociopath, he's not a sociopath--- (starts tearing at dreadlocks and gnashing teeth)

I feel you.. He hears John's speech and sees his grief and desperation, he overhears him blackmailing Irene into teling him the truth so he could stop being heartbroken, they have their conversation in the graveyard where John is truly pissed Sherlock didn't consider him as a friend at first, they live together and Sherlock thinks John's other friends all hate him, all the giggles and grins and little moments full of affection, and yet.. The most observant man in history is absolutely shocked John could regard him as his best friend. Well, it could be explained by the mother of all self-esteem-issues, or because he thinks the Fall has ruined it all.. But honestly.. I just think someone thought Sherlock drinking an eyeball-tea in stunned absentmindedness would make for great comedy (and further illustrate Shrlock's endearing human qualities perhaps, who knows)

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 10:16 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
I feel you.. He hears John's speech and sees his grief and desperation, he overhears him blackmailing Irene into teling him the truth so he could stop being heartbroken, they have their conversation in the graveyard where John is truly pissed Sherlock didn't consider him as a friend at first, they live together and Sherlock thinks John's other friends all hate him, all the giggles and grins and little moments full of affection, and yet.. The most observant man in history is absolutely shocked John could regard him as his best friend. Well, it could be explained by the mother of all self-esteem-issues, or because he thinks the Fall has ruined it all.. But honestly.. I just think someone thought Sherlock drinking an eyeball-tea in stunned absentmindedness would make for great comedy (and further illustrate Shrlock's endearing human qualities perhaps, who knows)

I think it's a mix of several things:

a) Sherlock's self-esteem issues
b) Sherlock's lack of social skills
c) comic effect

RavenMorganLeigh · September 15, 2015 10:24 pm

Vhanja wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
See-- this is where character continutiy becomes important. He knows he's John's friend, but doesn feel he's worthy of being anyone's friend, but he should just get it psychically, but he goes into shock when John calls him his best friend, but he's a sociopath, he's not a sociopath--- (starts tearing at dreadlocks and gnashing teeth)
I think he says he doesn't think he's worthy of being anyone's "best friend". I don't think Sherlock ever doubted the friendship of John or Lestrade. But I think he didn't realise how close to John he really was.

As for the sosiopath-thing, for me that was clearly only a wishful facade he got from Mycroft to protect himself.

The problem is-- the show doesn't say that-- our headcanons may, however.

RavenMorganLeigh · September 15, 2015 10:26 pm

Zatoichi wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
See-- this is where character continutiy becomes important. He knows he's John's friend, but doesn feel he's worthy of being anyone's friend, but he should just get it psychically, but he goes into shock when John calls him his best friend, but he's a sociopath, he's not a sociopath--- (starts tearing at dreadlocks and gnashing teeth)

I feel you.. He hears John's speech and sees his grief and desperation, he overhears him blackmailing Irene into teling him the truth so he could stop being heartbroken, they have their conversation in the graveyard where John is truly pissed Sherlock didn't consider him as a friend at first, they live together and Sherlock thinks John's other friends all hate him, all the giggles and grins and little moments full of affection, and yet.. The most observant man in history is absolutely shocked John could regard him as his best friend. Well, it could be explained by the mother of all self-esteem-issues, or because he thinks the Fall has ruined it all.. But honestly.. I just think someone thought Sherlock drinking an eyeball-tea in stunned absentmindedness would make for great comedy (and further illustrate Shrlock's endearing human qualities perhaps, who knows)

I think you're right. And, I just gotta say-- I think a lot of those "comedy moments" actually took away from the episodes.

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 10:30 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
The problem is-- the show doesn't say that-- our headcanons may, however.

Oh? I thought the show stated both things quite clearly. (We're getting slightly off topic, though).

Last edited by Vhanja (September 15, 2015 10:31 pm)

Liberty · September 16, 2015 8:08 am

I tend to bear in mind that the scene when John asks Sherlock to be his best man is part of Sherlock's speech, carefully planned for effect. I don't think it necessarily actually happened as he said it did. I agree, Zatoichi, that it doesn't make sense for Sherlock to be shocked that he's John's best friend - he knows he is. A lot of the speech involves putting himself down and bigging John up, and this seems to be part of it.

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 9:53 am

I think that scene did happen, personally. The way I see it, yes Sherlock did overhear John in TRF, then he went away and came back thinking that John was still his friend (as proven by his disbelief when Mycroft says that he might not be welcome when he goes back to John), and THEN he sees John's reaction and that's where he realises he screwed up big time and starts thinking that to John he's not the friend he was before, IMO. So that's why he's shocked when he gets asked to be best man, because he wasn't expecting John to still like him that way.

SusiGo · September 16, 2015 10:17 am

Dorothy83 wrote:
I think that scene did happen, personally. The way I see it, yes Sherlock did overhear John in TRF, then he went away and came back thinking that John was still his friend (as proven by his disbelief when Mycroft says that he might not be welcome when he goes back to John), and THEN he sees John's reaction and that's where he realises he screwed up big time and starts thinking that to John he's not the friend he was before, IMO. So that's why he's shocked when he gets asked to be best man, because he wasn't expecting John to still like him that way.

I really like this explanation. And we get no hint via John that the best man proposal did not happen as shown. And what I really like about this scene is that only now, during the actual speech, John learns what happened in Sherlock's mind and why he was standing there as if his hard drive had crashed.

Liberty · September 16, 2015 10:27 am

By that time, though, there's been the scene in the tube carriage at the end of TEH. Sherlock does know what John feels (and must have known before he set up the scene in the carriage - that seemed to have been done to get John to say it, rather than to extract information). He just might just be surprised at being chosen as best man (partly because everybody thinks he would mess it up!), but he wouldn't be surprised at being John's best friend. A similar moment must have happened, but Sherlock being so stunned? I don't think so. (Quite possibly, it is supposed to have happened and was added for comedy as said above. But it doesn't quite fit with Sherlock's character).

Susi, the hint is that it's part of Sherlock's speech - we see it in the way that we might have seen a deduction (the shooting in Magnussen's office, for instance), to describe what Sherlock is saying. But this isn't a deduction, it's part of a speech which he seems to have put a huge effort into planning, including enlisting help, to have a particular effect.

Last edited by Liberty (September 16, 2015 10:30 am)

Dorothy83 · September 16, 2015 10:32 am

Agree that it was certainly played up for laughs. But I guess, you aren't 100% sure of someone's feelings for you just based on words - you also see it from what they do, and John and Sherlock's situation is now very different from their 'best friend' situation before the Fall. John has someone else in his life and Sherlock doesn't have the same importance as before (at least the way Sherlock sees it). That, and Sherlock being aware that John knows he hates stuff like that - yeah, I would understand Sherlock being shocked at John still regarding him as his best friend and asking him to be best man.

Liberty · September 16, 2015 10:42 am

But what he says encompasses the time before the fall too - that he never thought he was John's best friend.

JP · September 16, 2015 10:46 am

IMO Sherlock thought about John more as a partner in his crime business. It is also the aspect he mentions before being headbutted by John (me and you against the world...)
But the more "fluffy" kind of friendship is something he cannot relate, as he apparently never had close friends.
Now back on track: John seems to be more normal on the outside, but deep inside he is as damaged as Sherlock. How blind must he have be to burden his alleged best friend with organizing his damn wedding?! It's like asking a fish to fly.
Sherlock really exels himself (the whole wall is full with plans and tables and informations pinned to it), makes the best speech and put together the best wedding in the world.

And John acts like a self centered git. It's Mary who express concern about Sherlock just before he leaves the dancing floor. John is miles away already, panicking over himself becoming father.