BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » John's evovlement throughout the show

Zatoichi · September 15, 2015 6:52 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
Does anyone think that John's tendency to be more focused on the emotional aspects of a case (TGG) makes him a liability at times?

Short version: yes..

I think that Sherlock likes him that way, but it would sometimes be easier during cases if John kept focussed on the facts and kept his emotions in check a bit more.. maybe then Sherlock would also be able to confide his plans to him more. But then we would miss out on their personalities clashing the most entertaining way..

I too have no intention to bash John, I still think he is a great partner for Sherlock, though a bit shaken up in S3.. But there are things that do bother me about him. Especially the side Raven mentioned, that he seems to enjoy seeing Sherlock taken down a few pegs at times.. I know many fans applaud this, and maybe Sherlock needs to be brought back to the ground sometimes.. But if you add Sherlock's insecure self-perception and Mary's snarky and -in my opinion- subtly derogatory friendliness to the mix.. in a situation where Sherlock already is on very shaky ground.. then it easily gets too much for me to still feel supportive for John. There were scenes in S3 where I just wanted to shake him... ^^

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 15, 2015 6:54 am)

SusiGo · September 15, 2015 6:55 am

I suppose this is also why I hate the drama queen remark so much.

Zatoichi · September 15, 2015 7:02 am

Oh yes.. And then John and Mary teaming up against him.. Argh..

The strange thing is I'm not bothered with John's "Spock" in S2 so much, even though it was a vulnerable moment for Sherlock, too.. Maybe because it doesn't touch on Sherlock's dignity quite as much.

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 15, 2015 7:10 am)

SusiGo · September 15, 2015 7:08 am

Yes, good point. For me the drama queen comment is so bad because it comes during Sherlock going out of his way to ensure a wonderful wedding and doing so many things he actually despises or is shy of.

Zatoichi · September 15, 2015 7:30 am

Yes exactly, that makes it much worse this time. Also "Spock" is in the line of Sherlock's preferred "sociopath"-image he uses as a shield, so not much harm done, but "drama-queen".. Together with "you are not a puzzle-solver, you never have been".. that hits home much closer, negates his achievements and reduces his whole personality to him blowing things out of proportion (which I don't deny he does sometimes.. But making this the focus in front of the two people Sherlock thinks have the prominent place in John's life now seems downright cruel). I'm aware John was under great distress that moment, but it doesn't make me feel any better about it..

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 7:53 am

You guys have to remember that Sherlock is constantly - in just about every episode - being snarky, arrogant or rude towards John. You can't expect John to just sit there and take it, he has to be allowed to snark back.

Dorothy83 · September 15, 2015 8:49 am

I understand what you're saying Vhanja and I agree that John should be allowed to fight back, I actually like it because it shows how equal they are and that they can keep up with each other - BUT, I think in this case John went past their usual 'bickering'. I mean, when is Sherlock actually insulting or undermining to John? Even when he says 'because you're an idiot' or describes his mind as 'lesser' (or something to that effect) he says something to mitigate it, like 'you know what I mean' or 'everyone is'. This time instead John attacked him in his very nature, 'you're not a problem solver you're a drama queen', I mean... that wasn't warranted. I don't think Sherlock has ever been that scathing towards him.

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 8:58 am

Then we view it a bit differently. I think Sherlock has been quite horrible towards John several times. Humiliating him in public, drugging him and scaring him senseless as an experiment, having John believe he was going to die just to force a forgiveness from him... being called "drama queen" can't really live up to that standard of cruelty in my book.

There is actually only one line that I feel was a bit cruel from John to Sherlock. And that was his "We are not naming our daughter after you" in the tarmac scene. I just felt it was completely unneccesary to underline that when they think they will never meet again.

So to me, they both have their share of rudeness to each other. I don't feel comfortable having only one of them taking the flak for their bickering and sometimes over-the-line remarks or actions, because they've both done it several times.

Last edited by Vhanja (September 15, 2015 9:21 am)

Dorothy83 · September 15, 2015 9:16 am

OK, I see what you mean. I guess I didn't think of comparing what they say with what they do - as in, the drugging in Hounds was for the case (not excusable, but not out of nowhere is what I mean), and the lying in the tube carriage was cruel definitely, but again not out of nowhere (again unexcusable, but you know what I mean).
John's words - the drama queen remark and even worse the one you mention about his name - feel to me like he said them just to hurt him (even though as I see it John didn't mean to hurt him when he said they weren't using his name - I think that was a poor choice of line by Mofftiss rather than an intention from the character, if that makes any sense).

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 9:20 am

Now that you mention it, I don't think any of them has ever tried to deliberately hurt the other one. I don't think the drama queen line was meant to hurt, and I don't even think Sherlock's "I don't have friends!" was meant to hurt, even though the lines perhaps did.

I think John's drama queen line was said in the heat of the moment. I think it was a result of John being stressed, frustrated and scared, not with the intention to hurt.

Dorothy83 · September 15, 2015 10:56 am

Yeah, I guess. As was the 'no friends' remark that Sherlock made. Though I could see Sherlock regretted that as soon as he said it, whereas I didn't see the same awareness in John (actually I think he didn't even think what he said was wrong).

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 11:15 am

I think perhaps the difference was that John was clearly hurt and angry. Sherlock tried to smooth it over with just being funny, but that didn't work. I think only then Sherlock realised it would take a proper apology this time.

But with the drama queen remark, Sherlock doesn't react in the same way. The line doesn't hurt him (he looks more childishly offended, which makes me think the entire scene was played for laugh by Moftiss more than anything else). His only reply is that John is a drama queen too, and they leave it at that.

SusiGo · September 15, 2015 11:29 am

I just found this meta about Sherlock and John in series 3 using the tarmac scene as an example. Even if you are not convinced of Johnlock, it contains some very interesting points. The best quote IMO:

"When it comes to love and sexual attraction and really understanding their own relationship and what they mean to one another, Sherlock took two steps forward and John took two steps back."

http://deducingbbcsherlock.tumblr.com/post/84162566259/it-bugs-the-crap-out-of-me-that-the-casablanca-ish

nakahara · September 15, 2015 11:30 am

It seems Sherlock is really supposed to be the machine in this show. Obviously he isn´t supposed to be hurt by anything, like other characters.

He is unjustly insulted while working for weeks as an organisator of John´s wedding party... hahaha, it´s just a joke.

He gets shot and almost dies of it... oh, it was just a flesh wound. Nobody minds.

John and Mary, on the other hand, are treated like people. When they are insulted, when they quarrel, when they don´t speak with each other for weeks - it´s supposed to hurt, even if they are not bleeding to death.

Very curious double standard is at work here.

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 11:32 am

I don't see it that way, but that might be a topic for a different thread?

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 11:47 am

SusiGo wrote:
I just found this meta about Sherlock and John in series 3 using the tarmac scene as an example. Even if you are not convinced of Johnlock, it contains some very interesting points. The best quote IMO:

"When it comes to love and sexual attraction and really understanding their own relationship and what they mean to one another, Sherlock took two steps forward and John took two steps back."

http://deducingbbcsherlock.tumblr.com/post/84162566259/it-bugs-the-crap-out-of-me-that-the-casablanca-ish

I liked this bit:

"I fully believe the biggest reason people take issue with John in this scene is because they’re comparing his apparent emotional state with Sherlock’s. But Sherlock has progressed emotionally, SO much, in season three…and John, sadly, has not. In fact, I think he’s regressed. (Through no fault of his own.) "

It seems to me that from the Fall and all throughout S3, John is being hit over the head (and in the heart) personally over and over again. Sherlock dying, grieving, Sherlock reappearing, being tossed in the bonfire, wedding, almost murder at the wedding, unexpected pregnancy, married life not making him happy, missing Sherlock, missing the old life, Mary being an assassin, Mary shooting Sherlock, John trying to rebuild his life with Mary, Sherlock shooting Magnussen, Sherlock leaving for good...

For a man who's already as repressed emotionally as John is, this is a helluva lot to deal with over a very short period of time. It could make anyone cranky. Whereas in S1 and S2, even though there was a lot of action and stuff happening, very rarely was John targetted emotionally the way he was in S3.

I think this is the explanation for his behaviour and attitude in the last season. And that is why I hope the focus will shift a bit in next season. Of course there will be drama and action, but I hope John will get a break so that he can find his equlibrium again, and become the solid rock and support to Sherlock that he used to be.

Last edited by Vhanja (September 15, 2015 11:48 am)

SusiGo · September 15, 2015 11:55 am

True. But we should not forget that the same goes for Sherlock.

He had to leave his work, his friends, his home, the city he loves. He was on his own for two years, Serbia probably was not the only painful and dangerous situation. Probably hoping - if we believe the shaving scene in TEH - that he would return to all he had left behind, most of all to John. Who is not there anymore. He is physically attacked and rejected by John (understandably so, but still), is obviously affected by working without John (the skeleton scene), has to find back into his old life, save John's life, go through the whole wedding business that must be simply horrible to him, and this is all before HLV has even started.

But the paradox is that while all this experience helps Sherlock to evolve into a more open and emotional person John seems to step back, maybe even back into a time before we meet him in ASiP.

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 12:04 pm

I don't see everything that happened between the fall and the reunion in TEH as something that evolved Sherlock emotionally. As Benedict said himself, he played Sherlock as having emotionally regressed during that time. Becuase it was two years without John as his moral compass (and probably two years where he had do drop any kind of moral thought at all to go through with what he had to do).

As I see it, Sherlock and John deals with these things slightly different. Sherlock tries - rather rudely - to shut Mrs. Hudson up in her "marriage changes everything"-speech, he leaves the wedding early and then he's off doing drugs. (For a case, but I don't think that was the whole reason). All of these are avoiding techniques. He doesn't want to face the issues that hurt him.

John is more the type that gets cranky during stress (although you could say that about Sherlock as well sometimes. I see a bit of similarities between "drama queen" and "I don't have friends". Both lines are said when they are frustrated, stressed and scared). John has a bit of a temper, it's like it's always there just under the surface and it spills out during stress.

If they could stop being cranky, avoiding and doing drugs and instead just have a good talk, everything could be so much easier. But pigs will fly before that happens, I reckon.

Last edited by Vhanja (September 15, 2015 12:06 pm)

SusiGo · September 15, 2015 12:20 pm

The funny thing is that while Benedict said Sherlock regressed emotionally, he does not really play him like that. He is much more open about his emotions than before: being only interested in John while Mycroft is talking about a major terrorist attack, the scene with Mycroft in TEH, the scene with Molly in the hallway, his behaviour during the bonfire, the "I heard you" moment.

And we should remember that John may have been under stress during the wedding, but Sherlock was completely out of his mind due to the drugs. This is not quite the same.

Vhanja · September 15, 2015 12:28 pm

Yeah, I feel his a bit more open in TEH as well. Especially with the awesome scene with Mycroft about goldfish and being alone.

But perhaps he meant the things about "What life? I've been away", and being completely clueless to how John would react (and even more clueless on how to deal with the horrible situation, only ending up making it worse).

Not quite sure what you mean about Sherlock being out of his mind because of drugs? I don't think I've compared anything with any scene where Sherlock was high?