SusiGo wrote:

And one last point - Sherlock and John are not your regular buddies, there is no "bromance" between them. They are bantering, true, but I feel that there are many unspoken things and secret looks and all that that give their relationship a different quality. 
 

Yes, I agree. 

I do think it would have been impossible to make Starsky and Hutch a gay couple in the '70s.  There were gay characters in films, but I'm not sure about mainstream TV.   I know in the UK we didn't get a gay character in a soap until the 80s.    So I think an awful lot of stuff on screen was coded hints - gay characters and relationships weren't shown outright but there were clues for those in the know.     I don't think that's happening in Sherlock - we've moved on since those times.  But it is referenced. 

@ Raven, does John put Mary first?  I'm not sure that he does. 
 

Liberty wrote:

SusiGo wrote:

And one last point - Sherlock and John are not your regular buddies, there is no "bromance" between them. They are bantering, true, but I feel that there are many unspoken things and secret looks and all that that give their relationship a different quality. 
 

Yes, I agree. 

I do think it would have been impossible to make Starsky and Hutch a gay couple in the '70s.  There were gay characters in films, but I'm not sure about mainstream TV.   I know in the UK we didn't get a gay character in a soap until the 80s.    So I think an awful lot of stuff on screen was coded hints - gay characters and relationships weren't shown outright but there were clues for those in the know.     I don't think that's happening in Sherlock - we've moved on since those times.  But it is referenced. 
 

 
Yes, I really think we've moved on since those times. That's the main reason I find it hard to root for their non-platonic love affair - if there is to be romance for Sherlock with a human being I want it to be open, passionate, fiercly protective and at least as glorious as I think he as a person is. Not all about repression without any easily understandable reasons (imo there is no bi-erasure in Sherlock with Mrs. H and Irene both suggesting John might be into women and Sherlock), denial, coded desire, stale grown-up choices against him and even taking up married life with the person who letally wounded him again.. it makes me feel exasperated rather than excited to imagine that's what love-life has in store for the both of them. And I find it hard to imagine that this is the kind of positive representation the Bbc-report had in mind.. nearly a decade of angst and pining before the tension is finally released with a happy ending. It is almost the opposite to Mark's vision of a gay detective-couple just doing their thing and being maverick without their relationship-status ever being the topic.

I'm sorry, but I insist on the Gherkin, the pool scene, the rug scene, the knee grope and the like 

Thank you, mrshouse. Just what I keep thinking. The funny thing is that it is usually the people who do not see Johnlock keep bringing up the sex. For me the most important point has always been the exclusivity of the relationship which IMO is incompatible with a marriage or other relationship of one or both characters. 
 

I'm all pro-Johnlock, if their relationship goals are fulfilled as soon as they sit in quiet harmony in their flat and talk about the thrill of their last case..

Last edited by Zatoichi (September 14, 2015 9:22 am)

But the beauty of their relationship only worked as long as there was no serious third party in the picture. I think in the whole of series 3 we did not get back the mood of series 1 and 2 and Mary was not the only but a decisive factor.
So I would like to know what their relationship could be in the future? Because both Johnlockers and non-Johnlockers seem to wish for something they did not get in series 3. I am not sure if there can and will be a return to John serial dating and Sherlock … well, doing nothing. 

Liberty wrote:

I know I've said this before, but the reason sex is important is that without it, we all pretty much see the same thing.   And without sex there's no Johnlock, is there?  If there is no sexual attraction between them, then there's "just" the special, loving friendship that we all see.  And (I know I'm repeating myself again, sorry, but it does keep coming up), that's not because sex is the focus of a relationship, necessarily, but it's what changes the nature of a relationship (from friends to lovers). 

I could see them happily being together without sex - that's not what they want from each other, I don't think.  John does want sexual relationships, but he could continue to have those.  I don't think he ever craved or planned a family life before Mary's unexpected pregnancy, so I could see him living without that.     I don't think it needs to be a sexual relationship to be a fulfilling one.  It's a different kind of thing. 

In the Mumbai interview, Mark said that they thought ACD realised he made a mistake by marrying off John, and that he needed him back at Baker Street.   I think that means that they won't be making the same  mistake and have a solution in mind. 

 
I couldn't agree more! Sex IS the one thing that changes a relation - not always completely, but rather overwhelmingly. And as long as Sherlock and John don't end up in bed together I myself wouldn't call their relationship "Johnlock".
Don't get me wrong, I share your opinion: They LOVE each other - but to me that's not equal to a romantic/sexual relation, it's just something different.

And, by the way, I don't see John ever being unhappy with Mary! Certainly, he is "pissed off", but he truly loves her and is happy being together with her. I don't see any sign of suppressed homosexual/bisexual feelings ...

Kornmuhme - Perhaps you could tell us how often John smiles with affection at Mary in HLV, if he is so happy with her?

Raven and kornmuhme - there are so many sex allusions already.

Raven: How could what we see be "bromance"? Bromance means happy best buddies, comfortable with each other's physical presence, talking with pride in public about their deep loving relationship, and being happy for the other's significant others.

The "B" is silent.

I need to put that on a T-shirt.

I heard you.