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September 9, 2015 4:55 pm  #1821


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Well, maybe John pretended he had forgiven Mary to make her feel secure and that it was part of a plan. That he probably wanted to spare her until the baby had been born. He is not a man who would hand over his pregnant wife to Mycroft or the authorities or whoever. 
As for the question: a) John is acting on his own and therefore does not tell Sherlock or b) this is for the sake of the audience, i.e. we are to assume that Mary is forgiven/John will stay married/Sherlock only wants to save Mary. 
 


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"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 9, 2015 6:16 pm  #1822


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

It's really hard to imagine John killing Mary (especially pregnant Mary).  I really don't like that interpretation.  It's possible ... but it would have to be an unimaginably good reason, for John to do it and for the audience to still sympathise with him. 

 

September 9, 2015 6:23 pm  #1823


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I can't see John killing Mary-- at least not the way they've set this up; but honestly, Mary could have had the baby in a highly secure, relatively luxurious correctional facillity-- full medical staff-- ( and it's probably safer for the baby, since she apparently scaled a building and beat people up and shot someone while pregnant!?!) 

But this line of thinking assumes that John is using her as an Incubator. Are we okay with that? 

 

September 9, 2015 7:05 pm  #1824


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

You mean he would be waiting for the baby to born so he can kill her off?   I do believe they can go very dark, but that idea seems quite repellent initially.  The thought of just-given-birth, vulnerable, bleeding, lactating woman having her baby taken away and being killed by her husband ... well, I tell you, it would need an incredible backstory for me to feel it was at all OK.

But emotionally, I suppose it would be huge, and unexpected.   And huge, unexpected things have happened before in the series. 

 

September 9, 2015 7:06 pm  #1825


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Heavens, where did I say John was going to kill Mary? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 9, 2015 7:13 pm  #1826


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I don't think John will kill Mary-- but I do wonder at the idea of using her as an Incubator. Are we okay with *that*?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 9, 2015 7:14 pm)

 

September 9, 2015 7:15 pm  #1827


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

*waving*

I'm the one who wants John to kill Mary and thinks it would be an amazing character arch for both of them.  It is also why my ideal solution would be for the baby to be fake. 


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
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"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

September 9, 2015 7:16 pm  #1828


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Oh, you didn't, Susi!  I was just referring to the article you linked:

"But if we look beyond the surface reading we see what Mofftiss is really telling us.  John is saying “I don’t give a shit that people want you dead.  In fact, I am very much looking forward to killing you myself.” This is the show’s next gut-punching reveal - that John didn’t forgive Mary for a goddamn thing, and John is (gladly) planning to destroy her himself.  This is the twist that we should see coming because we were warned from the very beginning."

I kind of like how the writer has looked at the wording (although I don't think I agree), but I think the implications are horrible!  (And in a way, it would be too John/Mary centric - an episode like that would have to be pretty much ALL about John and Mary surely?  Maybe Sherlock would have to kill Mary ... but for some reason, I don't see that either). 

Last edited by Liberty (September 9, 2015 7:20 pm)

 

September 9, 2015 7:19 pm  #1829


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Ah, okay. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 9, 2015 7:33 pm  #1830


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

tonnaree wrote:

*waving*

I'm the one who wants John to kill Mary and thinks it would be an amazing character arch for both of them.  It is also why my ideal solution would be for the baby to be fake. 

Ahhhh! 

 

September 9, 2015 7:39 pm  #1831


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Swanpride wrote:

I beginn to thing that the Fandom really, really hates John. Hasn't he suffered enough? The worst you can do to him is making Mary evil after all (because that would not only shatter his heart but also his trust in Sherlock), or to make either him or Sherlock kill Mary. The possiblity that Mary doesn't survive her pregnancy is bad enough, or that she looses the child, or both.

Also, if Mary dies of anything than natural causes it would mean that Sherlock shooting Magnussen was for nothing and that he failed protecting her.

Just so you know-- *I* adore John, but I think he's an extremely complex character.  He's got wonderful qualities, and some not-so-good ones. And I think that often , many in the fandom are biased in his favor to the extent of misunderstanding observations, critique and discussion of John as "hate" or "dislike". Somehow, John's character became sacrosanct-- any criticism gets shut down with accusations of "Hate" for the character. Funny how that dynamic doesn't usually happen with Sherlock.... 

Here's another question: if John has been through enough, why don't we have a problem with John having to deal with even more trauma at Mary's hands? After all, she lied to a man with PTSD and Trust Issues about who she was, shot his best friend just after he got him back, etc, etc, ....ad nauseum...

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (September 9, 2015 7:41 pm)

 

September 9, 2015 7:42 pm  #1832


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But he did suffer horribly from Mary's betrayal as well. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 9, 2015 7:46 pm  #1833


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

But he did suffer horribly from Mary's betrayal as well. 

Indeed. So, why is that okay? Doesn't John's well-being matter when it's Mary doing the damage? 

 

September 9, 2015 8:11 pm  #1834


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Even *more* of such happiness with Mary?


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 9, 2015 9:03 pm  #1835


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

This is something that I'm still not getting-

(1)  why do we assume that John CAN find happiness with Mary, taking into consideration all that's led up to this point?

(2) why does Mary deserve happiness, after all she's done? To JOHN?!?!

(3)  isn't John taking Mary back, in the end , kind of a betrayal of Sherlock? (Bonus for johnlock purposes) why should Sherlock be okay with being second best to the assassin who shot him?

Burning questions.....

 

September 9, 2015 9:05 pm  #1836


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

(1) No idea. I never assumed that. 

(2) IMO, she does not. 

(3) It is at least problematic. IMO John cannot have both in the long run. 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 9, 2015 9:08 pm  #1837


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

@ Raven: I think if John gets more of that kind of happiness with Mary it might kill him.


Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.   Independent OSAJ Affiliate

... but there may be some new players now. It’s okay. The East Wind takes us all in the end.
 

September 9, 2015 9:09 pm  #1838


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Bad, bad girl. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

September 9, 2015 9:11 pm  #1839


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

(1) No idea. I never assumed that. 

(2) IMO, she does not. 

(3) It is at least problematic. IMO John cannot have both in the long run. 

 

 
I know YOU didn't make that assumption!!! 

 

September 9, 2015 9:13 pm  #1840


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

(1) I don't think it is assumed.  I do think it's there as a possibility, depending on how things pan out (but I suspect that something tragic will happen whatever way it goes).

(2) I don't think it's a case of deserving (I don't think I've heard that Mary "deserves" happiness as such - she hasn't really done anything deserving so far).   However, she doesn't seem to have done anything deliberately to hurt John - has been protective of him, in fact.  (For instance, lying to him was a terrible thing, but I'm pretty sure she didn't to it to hurt him - she did it to protect herself and him). 

(3) No, I don't think it's a betrayal at all.  Sherlock seems to have made it clear that he wants it - he engineers it.  I don't think Sherlock will ever be second best.

 

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