BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Vhanja · August 28, 2015 1:36 pm

"Here is the meta I was referring to, I think it brings up quite a few interesting points, and deals with why the writer doesn't think Mary intended to kill neither Magnussen nor Sherlock:

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/74542270602/mary-did-not-intended-to-kill-sherlock-or

She talks about how her instinct as an assassin would make her pull the trigger the moment Sherlock took a step towards her, and call it "choosing what's easy instead of choosing what's right". I especially like what she writes here:"

"It was easier for Mary to shoot Sherlock than to put herself at his mercy and part of Mary’s apology is apologising for her moral weakness. She wants to be a better person than she is but she cannot find the strength to do so under these circumstances. This is why I find this character very moving because we all face situation where we choose to take the easy path rather than do the right thing. This shows us that Mary isn’t another Magnussen or Moriarty. She has a conscience even if she doesn’t listen to it. "

Last edited by Vhanja (August 28, 2015 1:43 pm)

SusiGo · August 28, 2015 2:08 pm

I tend to agree with nakahara. She stated one very important point - if what Mary did in her past was in any way excusable or understandable and if she loves John and trusts him, she should have told him. But we are told that a moral person like John and an immoral person like Magnussen both do or would regard her behaviour as bad and inexcusable.

Vhanja: Sorry, this explanation does not work for me. I have read it more than once but I simply do not see Mary wanting to be a better person than she is. If she were, she would have shown her regret in hospital or in the empty house or in 221B, but we get - nothing. Not even at Christmas. And for me that is the worst thing about her behaviour. If we were meant to believe that she regrets anything she has done, we need at least a hint. But John for example gets nothing, he does not even know about the "Sherlock, I am sorry". And that is simply not enough for me.

Vhanja · August 28, 2015 2:58 pm

I guess it comes down to how you want to view Mary as a character. There is enough ambivalence in what we've seen (and what we haven't seen) that she can go either way. So there is enough leeway for many different interpretations.

Liberty · August 28, 2015 4:51 pm

@ Nakahara, I'm not making any assumptions, but just trying to say how little information we are given. We know Mary was an assassin and it's hard to see that in a good light (but we have Sherlock effectively being an assassin in the very same episode, so we're not being told that it's irredeemably evil).   We're told nothing about her reasons except that she worked for the CIA (a government agency), and later worked indepedently and that she felt her role was to kill people like Magnussen (presumably people who couldn't be got rid of through the proper channels - and again, there's a bit of a precedent there with Sherlock getting rid of Moriarty).    So no, there aren't answers to your questions, just a lot of room for speculation and ambiguity. Speculating about who pays for it - I imagine the CIA paid when she was working for them, and that later, when she was able to pick and choose her jobs, whoever she was working for would pay (just as Sherlock is sometimes paid by clients).   She could also have money of her own put aside (so could maybe have just been working for herself, as you suggest).

I'm not sure about Mary leading Magnussen upstairs. It could be - that's one explanation. Another is that Magnussen was just letting Sherlock's plan play out (having fed him ithe information that he was out of the office), and left to go upstairs just as he arrived.   That seems to be a bit easier, timewise, as there's very little time for Mary to get in and knock out two people and confront Magnussen - having him already upstairs seems to shave a little off the time and makes her job easier.

@ Vhanja, I think that's a good meta and a valid view but I don't really agree. I do think it's strongly suggested that Mary was going to kill Magnussen, especially with her own statement that that's what her job is. Actually, threatening him would just put her more at risk ... if he really felt threatened, he could just go ahead and use his information and get rid of her. (I know the chain to Mycroft complicates things, but it's not clear that Mary really did know about that). I think she wanted to confront him and let him see her face before she killed him. It seems that her main reason for not killing him is so John wouldn't be a suspect, but I think it would also make things more difficult with Sherlock - he would have witnessed a murder, rather than just being the almost-murdered victim (which would have made it even less likely he'd have kept quiet, especially if John had been arrested).

About Mary telling John earlier ... she does explain that she doesn't think he could cope with it.   She didn't think it was an option. It turns out she was wrong, because he does cope with it (even after she shot Sherlock), but that's what she thinks. And the big thing is that it would mean that their whole relationship up to that point was false.   I don't know, but I think Mary had a genuine desire to be the new version of herself, for John.

Vhanja · August 28, 2015 4:58 pm

I know the argument about Mary not wanting to shoot Magnussen because she wouldn't want John to be a suspect. But I read somewhere (in a meta, can't remember the exact one) that it seems unlikely John would have been a suspect for very long. He had no gun (I don't think he brought it with him), and even if he did, the bullet wouldn't match his gun. He had no fragments on his hand, meaning he never fired. And he had no motive. (Regular police doesn't know about the Mary story).

Edit: Lol, yeah, those counter-arguments came from that very same meta. Mycroft is certainly living in a world of goldfish.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 28, 2015 5:08 pm)

SusiGo · August 28, 2015 6:05 pm

Do we know that Magnussen knew Sherlock was coming? The whole scenario is not very clear. It would mean that Magnussen fed Janine a story about his being out in the evening because he knew she would tell Sherlock. (Or Janine was in cahoots with Magnussen). Then he stayed in the office because he expected that Sherlock would come over to steal the letters. Then he went upstairs because he wanted to surprise Sherlock but instead Mary came in, knocked out Janine and the guard and went upstairs to kill Magnussen … I simply cannot get my head around the order of events.

And what is more - if Mary wanted to kill Magnussen, she must have known he was in the office.
a) Janine is in cahoots with Mary and told her.
b) Mary asked in a casual way about it (not very likely).
c) Mary and Magnussen had set a meeting for some reason.

Any other options?

Last edited by SusiGo (August 28, 2015 6:08 pm)

Vhanja · August 28, 2015 6:17 pm

Mary probably had Magnussen and the building under surveillance to know when to strike. She might have had a talk with Janine as well. Janine talking about having to work late or something like that.

As for Magnussen being in his bedroom - didn't he have a meeting or dinner that evening? It could be as simple as he was in there getting ready for the appointment.

lil · August 28, 2015 7:30 pm

Very unlikely Mary wanted to know what info Magnussen had on her...unless she forgot her whole previous life ..she already knew.
Stealing any evidence does nothing to stop Magnussen at all..Magnussen is threatening to tell Mycroft and Sherlock and people looking for Mary..why would he even need proof..the former just need to think and the latter would obviously check.
This idea of stealing evidence to stop Magnussen or that she doesnt know things about her own life...assumes Mary is an idiot.
Likely what Mary wanted to know was..who told Magnussen about Mary...in case she needed to silence them too.

The idea that shooting Sherlock was easy and a trained response..is probably correct and probably what led Sherlock to deduce Mary was a professional killer..highly trained agent . @Doesn't shooting innocent witnesses easily..as if just another day at work...make Mary look more of a psycho than less...
Mary didn't shoot the bad guy , she shot Sherlock who was innocent ..thats not a good or defendable MO.

SusiGo · August 28, 2015 7:52 pm

Lil: I fully agree with you. It seems Mary shot Sherlock as easily as one of her usual targets (and this does not even touch upon the "surgery" matter).

Vhanja: Magnussen was supposed to be out of to dinner between seven and ten. Sherlock is no fool and would have gone there sometime in between. We have to assume that Magnussen set a trap for Sherlock and used Janine for the misinformation. And we should not forget that Mary knew Sherlock had plans with John as well for the evening.

Vhanja · August 28, 2015 8:06 pm

Why do we have to assume that he set a trap? There could be a number of reasons for why Magnussen was delayed for the dinner. Perhaps even Mary had managed to slip in a fake message to Magnussen that there was a change of time for the dinner or any other reason for why he was still there.

Liberty · August 28, 2015 8:14 pm

I do think it was a trap - Magnussen wanted Sherlock to come to the office while he was there. Magnussen shows Sherlock the "letters", presumably to lure him to come and get them.

Janine could have been an accomplice of Magnussen or Mary, although we know she wasn't an accomplice of Sherlock. I suspect she might not have been anybody's accomplice. I have wondered if Magnussen set up Mary in the same way as Sherlock, wanting to see them meet (with Mary in assassin mode). But that seems too risky. And it looks as if Mary and Janine (possibly the source of information for both Mary and Sherlock - both admit to using her) hadn't been in contact for some time, and last saw each other before Sherlock was on the Magnussen case. Also Janine doesn't appear to suspect Mary of anything.

Mary was an intelligent agent, and probably rather expert at getting information - one way or another (phones, IT, even just asking, etc.), she could have found out what nights Janine was working late, and therefore what nights Magnussen was likely to be alone in his office.

I imagine that Janine fed Sherlock the information about Magnussen being out of the office very close to the time. It could even be the same day (Magnussen could have contacted Janine to say he was going out but she still needed to work) ... things started moving pretty quickly after Sherlock left the drug den. Then Janine could have inadvertently (or advertently!) given the information to Sherlock.

@Lil, good point about Mary maybe needing to know who else had information. Although she doesn't seem to be extracting information when she confronts Magnussen.

Last edited by Liberty (August 28, 2015 8:14 pm)

Vhanja · August 28, 2015 8:21 pm

I just don't see anything to indicate that it was a trap. And I don't see the motive for it - what good would it do Magnussen to have Sherlock come by his office?

SusiGo · August 28, 2015 8:24 pm

Imagine Sherlock was found breaking into the office of a powerful businessman like Magnussen. It would damage his reputation. And Sherlock could not even defend himself because then he would have to give away Lady Smallwood being his client.

Liberty · August 28, 2015 8:34 pm

I think Magnussen was just exercising his power too. He was a step ahead of Sherlock and relishing it. I do think the "letters" were a giveaway - that was carefully set up. He deliberately arrived with fake letters and showed them to Sherlock and presumably let it be known that he would be out of the office, but then happened to be in the office - I don't think it's likely to be coincidence. Sherlock thought (or appeared to think) that showing the letters meant Magnussen was open to negotiation (and that he believed that drugs were Sherlock's weak point) but it's clear that that was never his intent and never an option.

lil · August 28, 2015 8:52 pm

It seemed to me Sherlock wanted to arrive just after Magnussen left and while Janine was still there to let him in and Mary delayed Magnussen.
Not really complicated.
To add a complex back story to HLV after what will be a three year hiatus. ?
The writers don't and won't do that...we have to go by what we saw in S03..creating imaginary back stories and scenarios for Mary in HLV would require a lot of back tracking on a decision the writers already made.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 29, 2015 1:00 am

SusiGo wrote:
Do we know that Magnussen knew Sherlock was coming? The whole scenario is not very clear. It would mean that Magnussen fed Janine a story about his being out in the evening because he knew she would tell Sherlock. (Or Janine was in cahoots with Magnussen). Then he stayed in the office because he expected that Sherlock would come over to steal the letters. Then he went upstairs because he wanted to surprise Sherlock but instead Mary came in, knocked out Janine and the guard and went upstairs to kill Magnussen … I simply cannot get my head around the order of events.

And what is more - if Mary wanted to kill Magnussen, she must have known he was in the office.
a) Janine is in cahoots with Mary and told her.
b) Mary asked in a casual way about it (not very likely).
c) Mary and Magnussen had set a meeting for some reason.

Any other options?

I'm thinking Janine might have been working both sides-- Magnussen and Sherlock. Magnussen's who thing is getting to Mycroft. Mycroft's pressure point is his little brother, Sherlock. Do we not find it odd that Janine ended up in a faux relationship with Sherlock? We've always assumed that Sherlock initiated it to get to Magnussen-- suppose Janine was the initiatrix?

RavenMorganLeigh · August 29, 2015 1:00 am

Liberty wrote:
I think Magnussen was just exercising his power too. He was a step ahead of Sherlock and relishing it. I do think the "letters" were a giveaway - that was carefully set up. He deliberately arrived with fake letters and showed them to Sherlock and presumably let it be known that he would be out of the office, but then happened to be in the office - I don't think it's likely to be coincidence. Sherlock thought (or appeared to think) that showing the letters meant Magnussen was open to negotiation (and that he believed that drugs were Sherlock's weak point) but it's clear that that was never his intent and never an option.

I agree.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 29, 2015 1:08 am

I wonder if a lot of the confusion about Mary is her job descriptor: one one hand-- we have ex-intelligence agent. So, people imagine that she must of been on the side of right-- working for a government, etc, etc--

But the other part of her job descriptor is--asassin. She went rogue, freelance. Okay. Asassin-- that's someone who takes jobs to kill people for money. Not honor. Money.

Sherlock is not an asassin; at least his action in killing Magnussen doesn't make him one-- he's a vigilante-- and actually, as much as I hate it-- a straight up cold blooded murderer. But he accepted the consequences for it. He gave himself up. Was accepting a death sentence, either by suicide misson or death in prison.

Mary has never been brought to justice, and she's sure as shootin' not ever gonna turn herself in.

And, of course there's the what-I-want-the-character-to-be- factor. It's that need to see the character as inherently good, no matter what.

But I think a lot of this might be because we don't really know what all Mary was up to, before she (was planted??? just showed up???-- with John.

Another thing: if the instincts of someone used to combat are an excuse for Mary to shoot Sherlock (she panicked? An Asassin???) Then, why hasn't John "panicked" and shot somebody? He didn't panic when he shot the cabbie. He didn't shoot the Golem. He's been in war-- you'd have thought that when he actually WAS panicked , he would have shot somebody sometime during HoB! Cool as a cucumber, our John Watson.

So, not buying the "panicked" or the "programming." Or maybe, Mary just wasn't trained very well....

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 29, 2015 1:12 am)

Liberty · August 29, 2015 7:01 am

I don't think it's instinctive either. It seems to be calculated (according to Sherlock's deduction).

I agree that Sherlock isn't an assassin, but he does effectively assassinate Magnussen - when he can't find another way to stop him, he eliminates him.   And actually, although I think it's a really big, difficult thing for him to do and at the time he clearly feels awful about it and appreciates the enormity of it ... I don't think he wants to hand himself in to face "justice". He just doesn't have a choice, having made sure there were witnesses. (In fact, in the ACD story, Moftiss seem to believe that Sherlock does the same thing but avoids retribution by lying in collusion with Watson). I don't think he would lose much sleep over the murder afterwards, and would not feel he had to do penance for it (just my opinion).

Which all gives him something a little bit more in common with Mary. I don't think they're actually similar at all, and I believe that Sherlock is basically good, but Mary - well, we just don't know yet.   But I do think it's significant that we see Sherlock basically finishing Mary's work.

I think Sherlock is capable of doing terrible things if he thinks it's the right thing to do, and that's one of his strengths (not one of the angels). I keep remembering that Moriarty pretty much had to be dead in the set up for the fall, so Sherlock had been planning his death, one way or another.   Sherlock isn't at all perturbed by John killing the cabbie (neither is John). They are not like "normal" people, and that brings them a little bit closer than the average person to Mary's attitude that some people need to be killed.

Vhanja · August 29, 2015 7:01 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
And, of course there's the what-I-want-the-character-to-be- factor. It's that need to see the character as inherently good, no matter what.

Which goes both ways. Some have the need to see the character as inherently bad, no matter what.

I personally am not too fussed about "good" or "bad". What I love about the show, and these characters, is that they are morally grey and sometimes to actions I can't or won't justify. That makes them interesting in my eyes, and that trait goes to both Sherlock, John and Mary.