BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · August 26, 2015 9:50 am

I really do not think Amanda had any scientific definitions in mind when posting this. For me it is quite simple:

- Part of the fans have said that they view Mary as dangerous/psychopathic/a villain etc.

- Others have said they do not.

- Amanda has confirmed that for her - the actress who is playing Mary - she is a psychopath and has emphasised this by using the term f*****g. It really does not leave much room for doubt what she means, if you ask me.

Vhanja · August 26, 2015 10:04 am

SusiGo wrote:
I really do not think Amanda had any scientific definitions in mind when posting this

I agree. That's why I wrote in my first post regarding this that I think she was using the layman's term when it comes to this. And in layman's terms, Sherlock is also seen as a psycopath by many.

SusiGo · August 26, 2015 10:09 am

Swanpride: So what is your position on Amanda's tweet? After all it was what started this discussion.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 26, 2015 10:10 am)

lil · August 26, 2015 11:20 am

Great vid.Ty for posting.

Amusing comments from AA she seems to have changed her tune.
I wonder if she has been looking more into Marys character for when she is on -bbc radio festival women of Sherlock programme with Lou B and Una S on the 27 Sept.It will be interesting to see what she says then.

Harriet · August 26, 2015 11:54 am

Dorothy, you put it in words nicely, listing up all this.

It seems Amanda doesn't think of Mary as a loving and caring person any more?

Dorothy83 · August 26, 2015 1:12 pm

Harriet wrote:
Dorothy, you put it in words nicely, listing up all this.

It seems Amanda doesn't think of Mary as a loving and caring person any more?

I reckon she was just watching the scene in Magnussen's office and tweeted what she thought in that moment - I don't think it was an accurate or serious reading of her character from her. Like Vhanja said - she used the layman's term because, really, that's the reaction you have when you see someone doing something so f*cked up.

This is why I am also not interested in going deep into the psychological reading of Mary or what terms psychology uses - according to the (general) definition of psychopath, Mary is one.

Dorothy83 · August 26, 2015 1:14 pm

This said - I won't hide that I am very much hoping that Amanda's thughts on Mary are now so because she knows what's going to happen (=she knows that Mary will again do something crazy) and has therefore adjusted her view of the character in light of what she is going to do in s4....

SusiGo · August 26, 2015 1:15 pm

Well, she also tweeted how incredibly excited she was for series 4 so I suppose she must know some things.

Harriet · August 26, 2015 7:00 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I just don't get how you guys can be so sure of it.

So do you think at least Amanda thinks of Mary as a caring and loving person?

Vhanja · August 26, 2015 7:13 pm

Harriet wrote:
So do you think at least Amanda thinks of Mary as a caring and loving person?

I don't really know what Amanda thinks of Mary. As I've said - the layman's use of the word "psycopath" doesn't really mean that much, because it's been often used about Sherlock too. And Sherlock can be cruel and selfish, and also - without a doubt - caring and loving. So that term in itself doesn't rule out anything. (And it's why I'm not so fond of it to begin with).

SusiGo · August 26, 2015 8:05 pm

But I think one might agree that "f*****g psychopath" is not the way one would describe a selfless, caring person honestly regretting her dark past.

Vhanja · August 26, 2015 8:28 pm

Well, Sherlock was called "bloody psycopath", and he is (amongst other things) an honestly caring person.

Don't get me wrong. Perhaps Mary will turn out to be evil. Perhaps her entire relationship with John was a ploy from the start. Perhaps she doesn't really love him, and it was all some horrible plan where she was Moriarty's puppet.

I don't rule out anything. But I don't put much weight in a layman use of the word "psycopath" either, whether it's said to Mary, Sherlock or anyone else.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 26, 2015 8:28 pm)

SusiGo · August 26, 2015 8:30 pm

IMO she does not have to "turn out" evil, she is already evil.

And we should remember that it is other characters who call Sherlock a psychopath, usually characters who do not like him. He himself denies being one:
"I’m not a psychopath, Anderson. I’m a high-functioning sociopath. Do your research."
The only time he calls himself a psychopath is in the 221B scene in which IMO puts on a show for Mary.

And did Benedict ever call Sherlock a psychopath? Not sure he did.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 26, 2015 8:34 pm)

Vhanja · August 26, 2015 8:39 pm

I know Benedict has mentioned it in some interviews. I think he once mentioned that he played Sherlock a bit on the autism spectrum and a bit like a psycopath so that he couldn't be placed squarely into one of the categories. And I think I read once where - in a sidenote - he described Sherlock as a psycopath. And then in other interviews I think he might have said that he isn't one. I don't think Benedict has a very clear understanding of the term (like most people, so I don't blame him).

Sosiopath and psycopath is in general the same. And there are plenty of people viewing the series who think Sherlock is a psycopath. Not the die hard fans like us, but the more casual ones. I have seen it several times on YouTube comments and other forums, for instance.

SusiGo · August 26, 2015 8:44 pm

As far as I remember, Benedict has called him a sociopath, not a psychopath. These are not the same.

However, this is not about Benedict, but about Amanda. And nobody will convince me of the fact that the term "f****g" psychopath leaves any doubt about Mary not being a likeable, positive character. Said by the actress who plays her and probably knows about the direction the show will take.

Vhanja · August 26, 2015 8:47 pm

I've never said Mary had to be likable and positive. But it's possible to be unlikeable and selfish without having a personality disorder. So I don't put much stock into the term "psycopath" to describe a character, and will therefore refrain from reading much into it. I will wait to see what S4 holds, and take it from there.

That's my stance, not that Mary has to be all flowers and rainbows. Personally, I want Mary out of the picture as quickly as possible, and I care less about how it's done. I just want her out and get the show back to the two boys in 221B. So to me it's not about defending a character I love (as I will cheer when she is gone), but about not putting too much emphasis on labels I know are used and understood incorrectly by people in general.

lil · August 26, 2015 8:58 pm

I know for modern clinical diagnosis and etc in real practice , terms such as sociopath and psycopath are no longer relevant , however for laymen and general audiences and particularly Moffat , they are.
The writers seem quite fascinated with the subject and use them a lot in their works and interviews, and they are laymen writing for laymen...I suppose.
So for Sherlock and a lot of modern fictions , the old fashioned but popular psycopath and sociopathic stereotypes and persona's are still very relevant and fascinating.
Sureley what AA meant with what she said was obvious, and she wasn't hinting Mary needed an ASBO , but more that Mary had something of Norman Bates ( or a typical psyco killer ) to her character.
It could of course been a joke , but her further tweet apologising if people were upset but that we all knew it anyway , seemed to confirm the psycopath opinion.

Harriet · August 26, 2015 9:08 pm

(Mary needing an ASBO, LOL, lil, you made my day! )

nakahara · August 26, 2015 9:10 pm

I just hope we are not being baited by AA. Maybe she already knows that writers created some tear-inducing story in which Mary proves to be a squeeky-clean angel and she is just pulling our legs?

Harriet · August 26, 2015 9:14 pm

(You know, my first thought was: Why is SHE saying THAT NOW?)