BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mycroft Holmes

Lola Red · August 25, 2015 7:46 am

I agree, despite his outward cold-heartedness, Mycroft’s love and protectiveness concerning his baby brother have always won the upper hand until now (even pushing him into “legwork”, risking his own life to bring Sherlock home). It is so OOC for him to still his hand when it comes to a) checking Mary’s background and b) moving heaven and earth to find Sherlock’s shooter. He is too much of a control freak to just slip up in such a major way without a reason.

nakahara · August 25, 2015 7:54 am

True. He is also more level-headed and not influenced by the emotional connections to John or Mary, so he has the advantage of observing them in a much sharper and keen manner.

Dorothy83 · August 25, 2015 9:13 am

Lola Red wrote:
I agree, despite his outward cold-heartedness, Mycroft’s love and protectiveness concerning his baby brother have always won the upper hand until now (even pushing him into “legwork”, risking his own life to bring Sherlock home). It is so OOC for him to still his hand when it comes to a) checking Mary’s background and b) moving heaven and earth to find Sherlock’s shooter. He is too much of a control freak to just slip up in such a major way without a reason.

I completely agree, unfortunately what I think is that Moffat loved the 'Mary=surprise assassin' idea too much to actually consider that Mycroft would have known straight away and never let her anywhere near his baby brother (I believe he'd have got rid of her somehow even regardless of how John was going to react).
And even if we want to accept that Mycroft can't know everything, there is still a difference between not knowing 100% of everybody's background, and being ignorant that the woman shot your brother - when you work in MI6. That's just too unbelievable to me, but I fear Moffat just decided his precious Mary plot was more important to him than being realistic and true to the character when it comes to Mycroft.

Lola Red · August 25, 2015 1:31 pm

Which is why I find the CIA connection so intriguing. It is the first (partial) answer to that riddle that I can come up with (if I disregard an oversight by the writers).

Also don’t forget that it is not just Steven Moffat who writes the show, even when he is credited as the main writer for an episode, Mark Gatiss and Stephen Thompson are also involved. And especially Mark is unlikely to just miss such an oversight when it comes to Mycroft. I am actually quite hopeful that there might be a nice dark mystery waiting for us

Last edited by Lola Red (August 25, 2015 1:39 pm)

Dorothy83 · August 25, 2015 1:34 pm

Do you think that if Mary was involved in the CIA Mycroft would have been fine with her being around Sherlock *even* after she shot him?

Lola Red · August 25, 2015 1:51 pm

I can really not come up with a convincing reason why Mycroft should be unable to find the information that (a drugged and injured) Sherlock found (within a day). For me the question is not so much “Did Mycroft know about Mary’s past?” (I find it extremely unlikely he didn’t), but “Why did Mycroft allow Mary so close to Sherlock in the first place, or why did he not at least tell him the truth about her?” Why she was allowed to stay after the shooting remains a mystery to me. I can only assume that Sherlock was actually able to trick Mycroft into believing that he did not know his shooter.

Dorothy83 · August 25, 2015 2:20 pm

That's a very good point, and the same question I have been asking myself since I saw that blasted episode. Unfortunately like I said, I think it's a case of Moffat wanting us to suspend our disbelief in order to be able to go ahead with the MurderMary storyline - but while I do love a big twist I have always found that kind of leap really difficult to make.
The way Mycroft has been portrayed and the way he is now in my head, there is no way in hell that he wouldn't move heaven and earth to find out who shot his brother, *especially* if he thought Sherlock was keeping the truth from him (and he wouldn't need a huge deduction exercise to know if Sherlock was, since like John says Sherlock was facing his attacker and all Mycroft had to do was ask Sherlock who he saw).
Unless, of course, Mycroft thought it was just yet another 'adventure' his brother had got into - but I find this also unlikely since Mycroft knew Sherlock was after Magnussen and must have thought the two things were related somehow.

Lola Red · August 25, 2015 3:25 pm

Especially when Sherlock got shot in CAM’s office. Of cause Mycroft would know that Sherlock had to have seen his attacker, but if Sherlock insisted that he did not know that person, there would be little Mycroft could do about it. That of cause would mean that Sherlock would first have to fool Mycroft into believing him, otherwise it would be easy for Mycroft to deduce who Sherlock was trying to protect.

Dorothy83 · August 26, 2015 9:01 am

yes. And fool him big time, because I can't imagine Mycroft believing that Sherlock hadn't observed his attacked and stored as many information about them as possible - as per his M.O. he would have been able to tell quite a lot even if the person had been in a full ninja outfit (not like Mary was wearing it, with her face in full view ). I mean, Sherlock can smell specific brands of perfume in a room after the person has left... so yeah. I don't think Mycroft would have believed Sherlock knew absolutely nothing about his attacker.

PLUS... John and Mary are separated and that is very evident at Christmas (even Sherlock's 'simple' dad sees that!!). Mycroft is not stupid - someone doesn't get married with such a fanfare and then break up like a month later for something silly. I wonder what he thought, or what they told him?

And if I were him.... Sherlock getting shot and refusing to say who by + John being furious at Mary.... that would tell me a hell of a lot as to what actually happened.

Last edited by Dorothy83 (August 26, 2015 9:02 am)

Lola Red · August 26, 2015 2:01 pm

Well Sherlock could have given Mycroft a number of hints without revealing the really important ones: It was a woman, size 12, wearing clair de la lune, dressed in black, 5’4”
But yes, the fall out between the Watsons would have been more difficult to cover up (there is a reason why Sherlock could not let John know he was still alive after the fall, John is not the masterful actor Sherlock is).
Which brings us back to the big question: Why did Mycroft still his hand?
Is Mary Mycroft’s creature (the possible CIA connection)? Or Moriarty’s and (according to M theory) Mycroft cannot act against him? Or should Mycroft indeed have blundered?

Dorothy83 · August 27, 2015 9:01 am

I lean more towards the option that Mycroft 'blundered' because Moffat couldn't have done the MaryMurderer plot otherwise.

Either that, or Mycroft decided to leave Sherlock on his own in this because it is his fault he got involved.

Lola Red · August 28, 2015 7:53 am

But Mary was there long before Sherlock got involved with CAM. She was there when he came back to London, when Mycroft brought him back to London. And such a blunder by Mycroft? When he was already keeping track of John? Possible, of cause, but extremely OOC in my opinion. So I would think something more sinister and I personally prefer the “Mycroft is a darker shade of grey than we are left to believe” theory over M theory.

dioscureantwins · August 30, 2015 3:18 pm

I only just seriously joined the forum so can only join this extremely interesting discussion now. I've been upset ever since S3 aired because of what Moftiss have done to both Sherlock and Mycroft, which is to not take their own characters very seriously. I feel they've dumbed down both of them. I do hope they'll read some of the clever suggestions here for S4 to help their characters regain their credibility.

Last edited by dioscureantwins (August 30, 2015 3:24 pm)

mrshouse · August 30, 2015 5:02 pm

Welcome to the forum.
Would you like to elaborate your view on the brothers?

dioscureantwins · August 31, 2015 7:34 pm

Gladly, thank you for asking.

After the thrilling opening sequences of TEH my disillusion with Sherlock began with the scene in the restaurant, further intensified with the scene in the train car and became final in TSoT when he was so slow in the Bainbridge case.

My disillusion with Mycroft began when Mary shot Sherlock. Mycroft's first mission in life is to ensure his little brother's safety and yet John is allowed to date and marry and bring into Sherlock;s inner circle a trained killer? Hardly likely imho.

The whole of S3 feels like a different show to me. Far less suave and funny and eloquent. Both Sherlock and Mycroft are incredibly slow and Mycroft completely lacks that tight hint of danger. It feels like they dumbed down their own characters to serve the fans and create a greater public for themselves. They managed to do the letter but I'd rather been spared this improbable mishmash.

Lola Red · September 1, 2015 8:33 am

Interesting. I agree with you on Mycroft. He has lost some of his “the most dangerous man you’ve ever met” persona. Though I do like seeing behind his mask every now and then, I do not really want “the Iceman” to melt completely. But I have convinced myself that we will see a darker shade of him than we have until now in season 4, so until then I remain quite hopeful that there is a sinister plan behind his strange oversights.

Last edited by Lola Red (September 1, 2015 8:33 am)

dioscureantwins · September 1, 2015 7:32 pm

I do hope so too. Though to be honest I think Moffat and Gatiss have created an even bigger problem for themselves than they did with the TRF cliffhanger. In the meantime Mary's so-called surgery could well have ended with Sherlock's death, Mycroft looks like an incompetent and Sherlock like a common criminal who resorts to murder when pushed in a tight corner. This has all upset me greatly.

In the meantime, I'm convinced there's a volcano hidden behind Mycroft's icy exterior. Both Moriarty and Sherlock are very shortsighted when it comes to watching Big Brother. In that, they are indeed on the same side.

Vhanja · September 1, 2015 7:36 pm

I think that Mycroft has lost a bit of his edge because we seem him mostly with Sherlock and John. And he doesn't pose a danger to any of them. We do see a hint of it towards Sherlock's "fan club" in HLV, though.

dioscureantwins · September 1, 2015 7:48 pm

The big problem for me is that in HLV it turns out Mycroft apparently didn't know Mary is ex-CIA or MI6 or any other secret service agent gone rogue. He is the British Government. It's his job to know these things and protect his little brother. His failing to do so is a big disappointment for me.

Vhanja · September 1, 2015 7:56 pm

We don't know that yet. We didn't know that Sherlock and Mycroft had a plan to face down Moriarty in TRF. So for all we know, Mycroft - with or without the aid of Sherlock and/or John - might have something going on that we don't know about yet.