BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 8:04 am

Nakahara: not to everyone.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2015 8:05 am)

nakahara · August 25, 2015 8:06 am

SusiGo wrote:
Nakahara: not to everyone.

Yes, that´s true.

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 12:12 pm

For me this confirms something we have discussed more than once: Sherlock and John are called psychopaths and sociopaths but their acts usually contradict these characterisations. Mary, however, may be called a psychopath AND acts like one.

Vhanja · August 25, 2015 7:28 pm

I don't really get that. If Mary is a psycopath, then she wouldn't be able to love John. Or do anything for him. That would mean that the time she spent with John (before Sherlock returned) would be a deliberate ploy where she would act caring without being caring. What ploy would that be?

Then her talk about doing everything to keep John would not be out of love, but out of pure possession or something else entirely selfish.

I get the feeling Amanda is here throwing out the layman's understanding of the term "psycopath", not the true meaning of the word.

Harriet · August 25, 2015 7:32 pm

Yes to your two first points, Vhanja, this is pretty much how it looks like.
She is a psychopath and you describe her actions very accurately. She doesn't care indeed.

The third, I don't know.

Vhanja · August 25, 2015 7:35 pm

How do you know for a fact that she doesn't care about John?

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 7:39 pm

Some points:
- instead of siding with John when Sherlock returns, she talks about him not being the confidante and how she likes Sherlock
- she shoots Sherlock, fully knowing that his death will send John back to the place where he has been for two years
- she not once says she loves him, she only cares about losing him and what it will do to her

Traits of psychopathic behaviour are among others: diminished remorse (over shooting Sherlock), diminished empathy (treatment of Billy Wiggins), boldness and recklessness (climbing somehow into the office), violence (no comment), diminished moral judgement (her assassinations of people "who deserved it").

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2015 7:48 pm)

Vhanja · August 25, 2015 7:54 pm

I personally will not believe she is a true psycopath until it's done without room for doubt in the show. It could of course be that it happens. But until then, I will stay on the fence. Because I don't see any clear psycopathic signs in her in the show so far.

Moriarty and Magnussen were good examples of true psycopaths in the show.

(Sherlock himself shows the traits you mention in various degrees throughout the show, and he certainly isn't a psycopath).

Last edited by Vhanja (August 25, 2015 7:55 pm)

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 7:56 pm

Balance of probability, if you ask me. They usually do not show such things in black and white, they prefer the subtle way.

I do not agree with the point about Sherlock. But we have discussed his moral standards and behaviour more than once so we have to agree to disagree.

Last edited by SusiGo (August 25, 2015 7:58 pm)

Vhanja · August 25, 2015 8:01 pm

I would say the two M's weren't that subtle. Moriarty is a very over-the-top - almost cartoon-y - villain. (Not that I mean that in a negative way, he was/is a really cool character)

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 8:02 pm

And then we have a third female subtler M villain. Which is fine for me.

Vhanja · August 25, 2015 8:06 pm

I just don't get how you guys can be so sure of it.

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 8:09 pm

I am not sure - how could I? - but for me it is the most probable option. I cannot believe they will go for a crime-solving trio or a Mary who disappears behind diapers and milk bottles. And I imagine they might even show her to be involved with Moriarty as a sniper or whatever. And this would be really, really exciting, at least for me.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 25, 2015 8:16 pm

Well, today Ms. Abbington was on Twitter defending the virtues of Psychopaths-- because they make good CEOs.

Vhanja · August 25, 2015 8:18 pm

If they are going for her being a psycopath, I hope they do it properly.

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 8:20 pm

I think they already went for her being a psychopath.

Harriet · August 25, 2015 9:17 pm

By the way, did someone watch this?

It's by Ivy Blossom

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 9:21 pm

Very fitting lyrics, I would say. She knows how to do her stuff.

Dorothy83 · August 26, 2015 9:12 am

Vhanja wrote:
I personally will not believe she is a true psycopath until it's done without room for doubt in the show. It could of course be that it happens. But until then, I will stay on the fence. Because I don't see any clear psycopathic signs in her in the show so far.

Moriarty and Magnussen were good examples of true psycopaths in the show.

(Sherlock himself shows the traits you mention in various degrees throughout the show, and he certainly isn't a psycopath).

Definition of psychopath from Google:

a person suffering from chronic mental disorder with abnormal or violent social behaviour.

I don't know about the chronic mental disorder, she is a fictional character and wasn't exactly shown as going to get diagnosed at her GP. But the rest?

abnormal social behaviour:
- going into a hospital room to threaten a very ill man with a creepy sing-songy voice
- lying to your husband who you say you love very much about huge stuff and not feeling ANY remorse, nor feeling the need to be honest EVER until you are actually forced to confess
-I would also add 'keeping an assassin outfit + gun hidden (probably under the bed)' as abnormal behaviour to be honest

violent social behaviour:
- shooting your husband's best friend
- threatening other people with violence if they don't give you what you want (and this includes Sherlock and Magnussen)
- assaulting your friend Janine and a security guard in order to sneak into office (let's notice how Sherlock also wanted to sneak into CAM's office but never planned to do it with blunt violence)

I also do agree that Amanda was just reacting to the scene and using the word without a deep meaning to it (even without referring to what will happen in s4), but psycopathic signs?? I think they are all very much there!

Vhanja · August 26, 2015 9:43 am

Psycopathy isn't a term used in psychology. They use antisocial (or dissocial) personality disorder.

Dissocial disorder has this definition:It is characterized by at least 3 of the following:
[list=1]
[*]Callous unconcern for the feelings of others;
[*]Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations;
[*]Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them;
[*]Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence;
[*]Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment;
[*]Marked readiness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society.
[/list]

Antisocial disorder has this definition:A) A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three or more of the following:
[list=1]
[*]failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest;
[*]deception, as indicated by repeatedly lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure;
[*]impulsivity or failure to plan ahead;
[*]irritability and aggressiveness, as indicated by repeated physical fights or assaults;
[*]reckless disregard for safety of self or others;
[*]consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or honor financial obligations;
[*]lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another.
[/list]
B) The individual is at least age 18 years.C) There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years.D) The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or a manic episode.

So I would say we don't know enough yet to know if Mary suffers from any of these. But it does seem a bit at odds with the definitions. One trait is poor ability to plan, which wouldn't fit if her entire relationship with John was a scheme. That would require patience and a really good ability to plan ahead.

You can be selfish without having a personality disorder. And Sherlock does fit several of the traits listed above (in various degrees) without being a psycopath (having that kind of personality disorder).

I just think these diagnosis are thrown out too quickly. And Amanda being one of them, of course. (Unless the will go all the way, and she gave a clue).