BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » HOW did Mary do all this

Dorothy83 · August 13, 2015 7:59 pm

So my boyfriend's put on His Last Vow (for some reason - this episode is painful for me!) and re watching it I got some questions and I thought of posting them for the lols. Sorry if they have been asked already. So:

1- how did Mary get into Magnussen's office? I know Sherlock says she used janine to find information about Magnussen, and the idea is that she used her friendship to get Janine to let her in. But Janine wouldn't even let Sherlock in (and rightly so) so why would she let Mary in? What excuse did she use?
And if that's the case, does that mean that Janine knows it was Mary that knocked her out - which would mean she can go to the police and tell them everything and there goes Mary's cover?

2- if Mary wasn't let in by Janine, did she climb the walls like a ninja?

3 - how was Mary able to overpower a bulky muscly security guard *and* Janine straight after? How did 2 people (one of them trained for the job) not manage to stop her?

4 - how in the holy blue hell with crackers did Mary think that she could convince Sherlock to not tell John about her shooting him, forever?? Unless Sherlock moved permanently to Timbuctu? And in particular, how in the blue hell with crackers and zebras did she think she could manage to convince him by being hostile and bitchy towards him?? Was she planning on pointing a gun at him for the rest of their lives when they meet for Christmas and birthdays etc???

5- have Lestrade, Mrs Hudson and Molly found out who shot Sherlock and if yes, can I have a video of their reactions??

Basically this episode is so full of plot holes I can't even.

nakahara · August 13, 2015 9:27 pm

Hmmm, in my opinion:

1 - we had a thread for this question somewhere on the forum. My theory was that Mary was indeed let into the office, yet not by Janine, but by Magnussen himself. This theory is canon compliant (in the original story, Sherlock´s "fiancee" Agatha - Janine´s counterpart - enabled him to enter her bosses house unattended, while it was the blackmailer Milverton himself who let in the strange woman, his would-be-killer - Mary´s counterpart...) and it also explains why Magnussen remained in the office althrough reported to be out for the evening. Mary was blackmailed by Magnussen, she could have told him that she needs to discuss under what terms he´ll stop with this. He waited there for her. Note how, unlike Sherlock, she was not at all surprised she had found him inside.... because by making an appointment with him, she ensured he will be there.

2 - according to Moffat, yes, she climbed, but I found this theory implausible. How did she open the window from outside and didn´t fall down right away?

3 - Magnussen probably told Janine and his guard that he will have a discreet visit and ordered them to ignore his visitor (blackmailed people hate to be seen by more witnesses than necessary and he probably allowed them to only meet him and not to be bothered by his staff). So Mary had a free hand to catch them by surprise and leave them out cold before they knew what hit them. I don´t think they even saw her. (But I´m not sure about Janine, it could be her set up as well, she´s suspicious...)

4 - your questions are the further proof of my belief that Mary didn´t intend to threaten Sherlock, she always intended to kill him.

5 - I don´t think they know anything, they would never be able to move around Mary like they did (and it would be Lestrade´s duty to arrest Mary if he was aware of her crime, so no, he knows nothing).

RavenMorganLeigh · August 13, 2015 10:15 pm

nakahara wrote:
Hmmm, in my opinion:

1 - we had a thread for this question somewhere on the forum. My theory was that Mary was indeed let into the office, yet not by Janine, but by Magnussen himself. This theory is canon compliant (in the original story, Sherlock´s "fiancee" Agatha - Janine´s counterpart - enabled him to enter her bosses house unattended, while it was the blackmailer Milverton himself who let in the strange woman, his would-be-killer - Mary´s counterpart...) and it also explains why Magnussen remained in the office althrough reported to be out for the evening. Mary was blackmailed by Magnussen, she could have told him that she needs to discuss under what terms he´ll stop with this. He waited there for her. Note how, unlike Sherlock, she was not at all surprised she had found him inside.... because by making an appointment with him, she ensured he will be there.

2 - according to Moffat, yes, she climbed, but I found this theory implausible. How did she open the window from outside and didn´t fall down right away?

3 - Magnussen probably told Janine and his guard that he will have a discreet visit and ordered them to ignore his visitor (blackmailed people hate to be seen by more witnesses than necessary and he probably allowed them to only meet him and not to be bothered by his staff). So Mary had a free hand to catch them by surprise and leave them out cold before they knew what hit them. I don´t think they even saw her. (But I´m not sure about Janine, it could be her set up as well, she´s suspicious...)

4 - your questions are the further proof of my belief that Mary didn´t intend to threaten Sherlock, she always intended to kill him.

5 - I don´t think they know anything, they would never be able to move around Mary like they did (and it would be Lestrade´s duty to arrest Mary if he was aware of her crime, so no, he knows nothing).

I agree with all of your points.

Kittyhawk · August 14, 2015 10:50 am

1 and 2) Mary contacted her old friends Benji and Ethan (from Mission Impossible) and borrowed a new and improved (i. e. functioning) version of the "sucker" gloves for climbing skyscrapers, and a glass cutter (apparently sky scraper windows don't open).

I don't have any good ideas regarding 3 and 4 and agree with the others on 5.

SusiGo · August 14, 2015 11:18 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Hmmm, in my opinion:

1 - we had a thread for this question somewhere on the forum. My theory was that Mary was indeed let into the office, yet not by Janine, but by Magnussen himself. This theory is canon compliant (in the original story, Sherlock´s "fiancee" Agatha - Janine´s counterpart - enabled him to enter her bosses house unattended, while it was the blackmailer Milverton himself who let in the strange woman, his would-be-killer - Mary´s counterpart...) and it also explains why Magnussen remained in the office althrough reported to be out for the evening. Mary was blackmailed by Magnussen, she could have told him that she needs to discuss under what terms he´ll stop with this. He waited there for her. Note how, unlike Sherlock, she was not at all surprised she had found him inside.... because by making an appointment with him, she ensured he will be there.

2 - according to Moffat, yes, she climbed, but I found this theory implausible. How did she open the window from outside and didn´t fall down right away?

3 - Magnussen probably told Janine and his guard that he will have a discreet visit and ordered them to ignore his visitor (blackmailed people hate to be seen by more witnesses than necessary and he probably allowed them to only meet him and not to be bothered by his staff). So Mary had a free hand to catch them by surprise and leave them out cold before they knew what hit them. I don´t think they even saw her. (But I´m not sure about Janine, it could be her set up as well, she´s suspicious...)

4 - your questions are the further proof of my belief that Mary didn´t intend to threaten Sherlock, she always intended to kill him.

5 - I don´t think they know anything, they would never be able to move around Mary like they did (and it would be Lestrade´s duty to arrest Mary if he was aware of her crime, so no, he knows nothing).
I agree with all of your points.

So do I.

And one important addition to 5 - what about Mycroft? Still one of the big questions for me.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 15, 2015 6:35 pm

SusiGo wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Hmmm, in my opinion:

1 - we had a thread for this question somewhere on the forum. My theory was that Mary was indeed let into the office, yet not by Janine, but by Magnussen himself. This theory is canon compliant (in the original story, Sherlock´s "fiancee" Agatha - Janine´s counterpart - enabled him to enter her bosses house unattended, while it was the blackmailer Milverton himself who let in the strange woman, his would-be-killer - Mary´s counterpart...) and it also explains why Magnussen remained in the office althrough reported to be out for the evening. Mary was blackmailed by Magnussen, she could have told him that she needs to discuss under what terms he´ll stop with this. He waited there for her. Note how, unlike Sherlock, she was not at all surprised she had found him inside.... because by making an appointment with him, she ensured he will be there.

2 - according to Moffat, yes, she climbed, but I found this theory implausible. How did she open the window from outside and didn´t fall down right away?

3 - Magnussen probably told Janine and his guard that he will have a discreet visit and ordered them to ignore his visitor (blackmailed people hate to be seen by more witnesses than necessary and he probably allowed them to only meet him and not to be bothered by his staff). So Mary had a free hand to catch them by surprise and leave them out cold before they knew what hit them. I don´t think they even saw her. (But I´m not sure about Janine, it could be her set up as well, she´s suspicious...)

4 - your questions are the further proof of my belief that Mary didn´t intend to threaten Sherlock, she always intended to kill him.

5 - I don´t think they know anything, they would never be able to move around Mary like they did (and it would be Lestrade´s duty to arrest Mary if he was aware of her crime, so no, he knows nothing).
I agree with all of your points.
So do I.

And one important addition to 5 - what about Mycroft? Still one of the big questions for me.

It IS awfully strange that , well-- Mary survived. Being that Mycroft worries CONSTANTLY about his baby bro. :-)

Sherlock Holmes · August 15, 2015 7:53 pm

I just CANNOT believe that Mycroft does not know about this. I mean, he literally knows EVERYTHING. He probably has a file on Mary tucked away somewhere.

Agree with everyone else on the other points, although I do accept that Mary climbed the walls like a ninja to get in, seeing as that is apparently what actually happened, however implausible it is.

I think Mary always intended to kill Sherlock and don't believe this bull about "surgery". Not entirely sure whether Sherlock believes it either, but we'll see. I was really surprised she didn't go into the hospital and smother him with a pillow tbh.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 17, 2015 6:23 pm

I think that if we can accept that Mary climbed the outside of the building-- which is very implausible-- we can accept that Mycroft might not have known the truth about Mary. He's not God.

nakahara · August 17, 2015 7:36 pm

Mycroft has whole file on John (as we saw in TEH), so it´s very unlikely that he overlooked Mary who was directly connected, even intimate with John - Mycroft´s subject of observation.

But even if he by chance overlooked her before Sherlock was shot, I somehow doubt the same thing can be said after Sherlock was shot. Mycroft would move heaven and earth to uncover the identity of a dastardly shooter, IMHO.

REReader · August 17, 2015 9:52 pm

nakahara wrote:
Mycroft has whole file on John (as we saw in TEH), so it´s very unlikely that he overlooked Mary who was directly connected, even intimate with John - Mycroft´s subject of observation.

But even if he by chance overlooked her before Sherlock was shot, I somehow doubt the same thing can be said after Sherlock was shot. Mycroft would move heaven and earth to uncover the identity of a dastardly shooter, IMHO.

Mycroft doesn't know as much as he thinks he does--he thinks Irene is dead, remember. He even knows--he said outright--that Sherlock can bamboozle him, he just thinks that in Irene's case he wouldn't want to. I'm sure he thinks the same about whoever shot Sherlock--but it seems clear that Sherlock does not in the least want Mycroft involved.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 12:21 am

REReader wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Mycroft has whole file on John (as we saw in TEH), so it´s very unlikely that he overlooked Mary who was directly connected, even intimate with John - Mycroft´s subject of observation.

But even if he by chance overlooked her before Sherlock was shot, I somehow doubt the same thing can be said after Sherlock was shot. Mycroft would move heaven and earth to uncover the identity of a dastardly shooter, IMHO.
Mycroft doesn't know as much as he thinks he does--he thinks Irene is dead, remember. He even knows--he said outright--that Sherlock can bamboozle him, he just thinks that in Irene's case he wouldn't want to. I'm sure he thinks the same about whoever shot Sherlock--but it seems clear that Sherlock does not in the least want Mycroft involved.

That makes sense.

Lola Red · August 19, 2015 12:02 pm

True, if anyone could even occasionally outplay Mycroft, it is Sherlock. But in this case it would not have been Sherlock who outplayed Mycroft, but Mary. Now remember that Sherlock was able to uncover the truth about Mary within a day, once he started looking for it; and he was incapacitated during that time and still on Morphine. Mycroft, on the other hand, is supposed to be even cleverer than Sherlock and, according to Sherlock, basically is the British Government, the British Secret Service and occasionally the CIA. We know he kept a close eye on John during Sherlock’s absence. How, with all his resources, is he supposed to overlook the information that Sherlock took a day to find? This to me is the real mystery. For Mary to be able to enter into a building and overpowering two people without being seen seems reasonable for a trained assassin, but Mycroft’s oversight is highly OOC.

Last edited by Lola Red (August 25, 2015 7:37 am)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 24, 2015 7:26 pm

Didn't Mofftiss say something like Mary was smarter than everybody on the show? If they were following that premise, then *sure* Mary could fool and outsmart Mycroft.

Of course, they could ahve been talkin' out their ---- errr. Umm. I suspect you all know what I mean. :-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 24, 2015 7:34 pm)

Lola Red · August 25, 2015 7:28 am

I would not have such an issue with it if Sherlock had a harder time figuring it out, but if he can do it in a day, then Mycroft (thanks to being slightly smarter and in a much better position to get to that kind of information) should be able to do it in minutes. That is, of cause, if Mary and Mycroft do not have a more sinister connection from Mary’s “wet jobs for the CIA”, one of the organisations that Mycroft embodies “on a freelance basis”.

REReader · August 25, 2015 5:18 pm

Sherlock--having, you know, actually been shot by Mary--had a better reason than Mycroft to dig into Mary's background. It's not as though she wouldn't have the training in how to put together a reasonably sturdy fake background.

SusiGo · August 25, 2015 5:27 pm

On the other hand Mycroft always checked people who came into contact with his brother. Think of ASiP where he presents John's confidential patient information from Ella. He should have become suspicious even before Sherlock got shot. Unless, of course, M theory applies and he has not been able to act freely from the very beginning.

Lola Red · August 25, 2015 5:57 pm

REReader wrote:
Sherlock--having, you know, actually been shot by Mary--had a better reason than Mycroft to dig into Mary's background. It's not as though she wouldn't have the training in how to put together a reasonably sturdy fake background.

As Susi said: Mycroft apparently habitually background-checks people who come close to Sherlock, he had very confidential information on John within a day. Also, we know he had kept an eye on John during Sherlock’s absence. He knew where John would be on the evening of the reunion. It just does not seem plausible for him to ignore Mary. The thing is that her fake background was not terribly solid. Sherlock was able to figure it out within a day, while being drugged and injured. Mycroft not only has greater mental capabilities than Sherlock, he also has access to much more information. If Sherlock had spent months figuring out who/what Mary really was, it would be likely that Mycroft did not have enough motivation to dig deeper, after the first check came up clear. But it does not seem to take much to figure out that Mary Morstan was the name of a stillborn child that suddenly appeared to come back to life 5 years before the events of HLV.

REReader · August 26, 2015 7:31 pm

On the one hand, we don't know that Sherlock didn't start poking around after coming up with "liar" at first examination of Mary. Alternately, a regular background check might well have come up clean, but Sherlock bypassed all green lights, having seen Mary in full assassin mode.

Lola Red · August 27, 2015 6:57 am

I don’t see how a background-check would come up clean. I would guess that a person that basically did not exist on the system until 5 years before HLV and then ends up in close proximity to Sherlock would catch Mycroft’s interest. Also, there are no indications that Sherlock ever tried do dig into Mary’s background, he is different from his brother in this. When John would not tell him his middle name, he tried to figure it out by himself for quite a while until he acquired his birth certificate. Mycroft seems to dig into the records immediately. Sherlock deduced John to figure out who he had in front of him, Mycroft got John’s therapist’s notes.

SusiGo · August 27, 2015 7:06 am

To me there are only two options: Mycroft not checking Mary's past is a plothole and completely out of character, or he knows about her past but does not act upon it for some reason.

And throughout three whole episodes they apparently endeavoured not to have him and Mary meet (until the very end, that is). And then we do not see any interaction between them. Which makes me inclined to go for option 2.