BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » I hope I'm wrong about this...

Vhanja · July 14, 2015 12:55 pm

I don't know how it is in England, but in Norway the body is normally only available for viewing for the closest family for a private viewing arranged by the priest and with the closest family being the only one who knows about it. (Of course, they can bring whomever they want). It's done quietly normally a day or so after the death.

John had already seen the body, and we don't have any information on whether or not he would like to see it again. Seeing as he had never met Sherlock's parents, their viewing would have been in private. It would be logical that they wouldn't contact John, or the other way around, for it.

So I don't see that part as a problem.

Last edited by Vhanja (July 14, 2015 12:58 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · July 14, 2015 7:23 pm

This is a fascinating discussion. I'll tell you-- I don't buy TEH version of the Fall--- because it doesn't match what we saw in TRF. There are GLARING discrepancies between the two episodes.
Just don't make no sense! :-)

kornmuhme · July 14, 2015 9:06 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I don't know how it is in England, but in Norway the body is normally only available for viewing for the closest family for a private viewing arranged by the priest and with the closest family being the only one who knows about it. (Of course, they can bring whomever they want). It's done quietly normally a day or so after the death.

John had already seen the body, and we don't have any information on whether or not he would like to see it again. Seeing as he had never met Sherlock's parents, their viewing would have been in private. It would be logical that they wouldn't contact John, or the other way around, for it.
So I don't see that part as a problem.

Yeah, there's no such a thing like a public viewing in Germany either. The family and other relatives and friends being in touch with the family can see the (prepared) body one or a few days after death.
But it must have been suspicious to JOhn that none of Sherlock's family took part in the funeral. At least it is told the viewer that the parents weren't there. I don't know about Mycroft. Unfortunately, we don't get a glimpse at the funeral scene :-/.

Last edited by kornmuhme (July 14, 2015 9:07 pm)

kornmuhme · July 14, 2015 9:11 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
This is a fascinating discussion. I'll tell you-- I don't buy TEH version of the Fall--- because it doesn't match what we saw in TRF. There are GLARING discrepancies between the two episodes.
Just don't make no sense! :-)

Totally agree with you! I still have a few questions: Why the body? Why Molly's involvement (Mycroft could have done everything easily, he IS the British government at last)? What about the other people in the houses around? What if ANYBODY not meant to see has seen the fake? And so on ...
I wonder if we get any further information in the next series or if TRF is closed forever ...

Kittyhawk · July 15, 2015 12:04 pm

I wasn't talking about a "viewing" of the body in the funeral parlour or in a chapel at the cemetery. I am thinking that John, who was in and out of the morgue all the time anyway (and therefore knows the way) would simply try to barge into the morgue to have another look at Sherlock to convince himself he's really dead (really, trying to take the pulse at the wrist doesn't prove anything - and Sherlock looks surprisingly undamaged for a fall from a rooftop) - and frankly, Molly would be unable to stop him by force.

Whereas I still think that Molly's involvement was necessary - yes, Mycroft is the British government, but it would look highly suspcious if he started to sign hospital paperwork (Wellingtongoose has a meta on the subject).

All the other questions are very good ones to which I would also like to know the answer. but I don't think we'll get better answers. Does anybody know whether Moftiss actually thought about how to have Sherlock survive the fall before they made him jump? (I happen to know that they did not plan a solution to the swimming pool scene when they wrote TGG...)

Vhanja · July 15, 2015 6:52 pm

We have nothing in the show that tells us John would barge into the morgue. There is nothing that says John doubts that Sherlock really is dead. I think that is partly why they had the fake body - John saw Sherlock falling and hitting the ground. He then felt no pulse.

After that, I think he was in such a shock from the entire thing that he didn't need to see anything more, or be convinced of anything else.

(Let me just say that I have lost a close one unexpectedly myself - although nothing as dramatic, of course - and Martin's acting in TRF is amazing. That absolutely overwhelming and all-encompassing numbness and shock that he portrays, to the point of losing the strength in your legs and crumbling to the ground, is very, very realistic).

Liberty · July 15, 2015 6:56 pm

I agree about the acting. And I think you're right - he didn't just hear about Sherlock's death, he actually saw him fall to his death, touched the "body", etc. He didn't really need to have it confirmed.

I'm also not sure he'd spend a lot of time at the morgue without Sherlock - why would he? He's a GP, so I don't think he'd normally have any reason to be there in a professional capacity (do correct me if I'm wrong).

Lilythiell · July 16, 2015 6:35 pm

I didn't -and still don't- see it that way. Kill a man so he could kill himself? Maybe before meeting John and slowly becoming more in touch with his emotions, but at that time there wouldn't have been any reason for him to do so, would it?
I agree with Solar, that the body was needed because there was the danger of John getting a glance at the body. And that seems to be something Sherlock would think, dismissing the impact of his "suicide" on his friend.
Now, let me just add another reason not to believe the third explanation. ''There were thirteen likely scenarios'' is what he says to introduce is explanation. I don't buy that Sherlock would not use the correct plural for the word scenario -which would be scenari (in Italian)
I have to agree that John would not have much reason to be in the morgue all the time without Sherlock, if any. However, despite his temper, I can't see him barging in the morgue to "be sure". I think he'd be too numb, grief stricken, and that his (absence of) emotions would have the upper hand on logic. Check? What the hell for? I just saw him jump! Christ!
In that case, all the "you see but do not observe" from Sherlock has been forgotten, much like Sherlock's grasp of emotions has been dismissed. The Fall sounds like it's "back to square one" for both of them, when put like that.

kornmuhme · July 16, 2015 7:06 pm

Lilythiell wrote:
I didn't -and still don't- see it that way. Kill a man so he could kill himself? Maybe before meeting John and slowly becoming more in touch with his emotions, but at that time there wouldn't have been any reason for him to do so, would it?
I agree with Solar, that the body was needed because there was the danger of John getting a glance at the body. And that seems to be something Sherlock would think, dismissing the impact of his "suicide" on his friend.

But John did see the body - Sherlock himself served as the body and John felt his pulse stopped by this tiny ball. So I still wonder why this second body was needed.

Lilythiell wrote:
Now, let me just add another reason not to believe the third explanation. ''There were thirteen likely scenarios'' is what he says to introduce is explanation. I don't buy that Sherlock would not use the correct plural for the word scenario -which would be scenari (in Italian)

What would be the difference?

Lilythiell wrote:
I have to agree that John would not have much reason to be in the morgue all the time without Sherlock, if any. However, despite his temper, I can't see him barging in the morgue to "be sure". I think he'd be too numb, grief stricken, and that his (absence of) emotions would have the upper hand on logic. Check? What the hell for? I just saw him jump! Christ!
In that case, all the "you see but do not observe" from Sherlock has been forgotten, much like Sherlock's grasp of emotions has been dismissed. The Fall sounds like it's "back to square one" for both of them, when put like that.

Absolutely agree!

Vhanja · July 16, 2015 7:30 pm

kornmuhme wrote:
But John did see the body - Sherlock himself served as the body and John felt his pulse stopped by this tiny ball. So I still wonder why this second body was needed.

Yeah, but with the second body, John could see - and hear - a body actually falling and hitting the ground, removing any doubt of his survival.

Lilythiell · July 16, 2015 8:14 pm

kornmuhme wrote:
What would be the difference?

Language. I don't know why, but it struck me as odd that Sherlock would use the English form for the plural of scenario (the one he uses is correct, in English). Italian is the official language in music, and I really wouldn't put it past him to learn Italian just so he could converse with Italian music lover. Well, I say "converse".
Ha. Just realised another part of my headcanon.

Ariane DeVere · August 24, 2015 2:50 pm

For me, the puzzling thing is: if the body really is the lookalike who scared Claudette Bruhl, what was he doing in a morgue? Sherlock tells Anderson:

"But I deduced Moriarty must have found someone who looked very like me to plant suspicion, and that that man – whoever he was – had to be got out of the way as soon as his usefulness ended. That meant there was a corpse in a morgue somewhere that looked just like me."

But why would Moriarty leave the body to be found? Surely he'd bury it in the middle of a forest where it would never be discovered?

There are many reason why - despite what Mofftiss said in the DVD commentary - I'm not convinced that the Lazarus option was the truth any more than the other two options. I think there are parts of it which are the truth, but not the whole thing.

tonnaree · August 24, 2015 3:48 pm

I may be the only Sherlock fan on the planet who is at peace with The Fall. I understand that we're never going to get a rock solid explination from the powers that be explaining it and I'm ok with that.

kornmuhme · August 24, 2015 5:53 pm

tonnaree wrote:
I may be the only Sherlock fan on the planet who is at peace with The Fall. I understand that we're never going to get a rock solid explination from the powers that be explaining it and I'm ok with that.

Oh, I'm not troubled with it either - I just like thinking about it from time to time, but I don't have any sleepless nights :-). A nice expression, "to be at peace with The Fall", by the way. I also agree that we will never ever get a fully satisfying explanation by Moftiss.

REReader · August 24, 2015 6:27 pm

Ariane DeVere wrote:
There are many reason why - despite what Mofftiss said in the DVD commentary - I'm not convinced that the Lazarus option was the truth any more than the other two options. I think there are parts of it which are the truth, but not the whole thing.

This, exactly.

Magingus · September 24, 2015 3:36 am

Ariane DeVere wrote:
There are many reason why - despite what Mofftiss said in the DVD commentary - I'm not convinced that the Lazarus option was the truth any more than the other two options. I think there are parts of it which are the truth, but not the whole thing.

Well put. In my own opinion, there appears to be a large discrepancy between the version he tells John (his trusted friend) and the version he tells Anderson (a fanatic, who is filming the explanation).

Even though we only get a small taste of the "John" version before he's cut off, there's an element of spontaneity and "on the spot" planning - whereas the Anderson version, everything seems so pre-planned and neat.

I do not doubt the overall story - after all, he did survive and there were people on scene to take him neatly away, as could only be done with a carefully choreographed plan - but what he begins to tell John just does not seem to jive with the Anderson explanation.