BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Johnlock: The Official Debate

SusiGo · August 18, 2015 6:38 pm

Yes, he did. I cannot find the quote at the moment but it would be very out of character for Steven and Mark to write about a happy Watson marriage. Does not make for a dramatic show. Or the Sherlock and John show.

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 6:45 pm

I am SO exited to see where they take this in S4. I mean - with a baby on the way? How on earth are they going to solve this?!

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 6:48 pm

I'm wondering if we'll see a baby at all-- by the time s4 airs, won't the child be a toddler?

SusiGo · August 18, 2015 6:51 pm

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 6:51 pm

Lol, at least!

SusiGo · August 19, 2015 8:34 pm

I really like this post. Can it be that Canon is so much more progressive?

http://heimishtheidealhusband.tumblr.com/post/127085526028/sharing-a-room-always

Vhanja · August 19, 2015 8:37 pm

Only explanation for this must be that it was probably more acceptable for two men to share a bedroom in a hotel back then? Just as it was more acceptable for them to be flatmates without there being any speculation. Also, it could be to save money?

SusiGo · August 19, 2015 8:39 pm

Tbh, I have no idea how this constant flat-and-bed-sharing would have been perceived in Victorian times. But I would really like to hear about this from a historian. The same goes for a post I saw about all the instances in which John Watson describe male beauty in great detail.

Harriet · August 19, 2015 9:34 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Only explanation for this must be that it was probably more acceptable for two men to share a bedroom in a hotel back then? Just as it was more acceptable for them to be flatmates without there being any speculation. Also, it could be to save money?

Why the only explanation?

Vhanja · August 19, 2015 9:37 pm

Harriet wrote:
Why the only explanation?

Dropped a word there. What I meant was only OTHER explanation.

Harriet · August 19, 2015 9:39 pm

So another explanation is needed?

Vhanja · August 19, 2015 9:43 pm

Harriet wrote:
So another explanation is needed?

One shouldn't jump to any conclusions without having gone through all possible explanations.

Harriet · August 19, 2015 9:47 pm

Oh. I see. Right, one used to be used so often that it might be helpful to have a look at the other one.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 20, 2015 4:03 am

You've got me thinking---you know, back in the 50's, 40's, 30's-- it was not uncommon for men to kiss each other in greeting. People weren't so worried about "The Gay", in those times. I mean, at that time, "Gay", just meant happy. So, I think, when we try to look at the Victorian Era and how men behaved with each other in the context of our own times-- well, it can be misleading and confusing. Of course, back then-- Homosexuality was an actual Crime-- or at least warranted commitment into the nuthouse.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 20, 2015 4:03 am)

Schmiezi · August 20, 2015 4:21 am

SusiGo wrote:
I really like this post. Can it be that Canon is so much more progressive?

http://heimishtheidealhusband.tumblr.com/post/127085526028/sharing-a-room-always

I just want to quote from "The Man with the Twisted Lips" for the sake of science: (Yes, literary studies is science too)

Holmes: “You’ll come with me, won’t you?
Watson:“If I can be of use.”
Holmes: “Oh, a trusty comrade is always of use; (...) My room at The Cedars is a double-bedded one.”

Well, nothing left to say.

Last edited by Schmiezi (August 20, 2015 4:22 am)

TeaCub · August 20, 2015 12:33 pm

When it comes to Johnlock, I'm not sure what to think.

At the risk of sounding soapboxy, I did feel there was something deeper between them - certain moments in Series 3, little looks and the fact that (and I only realised this in fullness the other day) wow, John is in a really foul mood for most of HLV, even before Mary shoots Sherlock. He clearly misses Sherlock and the excitement of it and he's immediately getting involved with Sherlock again when he finds him in the drug-den. I feel Sherlock has deliberately distanced himself from John in that time (although I'm disappointed in John for not keeping in better contact with him). He rushes straight back in, head-first. For me though, it's more the pilot than anything, because I feel there's something in the pilot - Sherlock being younger and friendlier and John being, I think, a little kinder and a little less angry and by extension a little less defensive; how they might have been, I feel, if they had met about ten years earlier. Quite an interesting thing.

I don't - and this is where the soapboxy bit comes in - feel comfortable reading fanfic where Mary is still on the scene and still married to John when there's Johnlock on the horizon, so right now I'm in the AU zone when Mary just isn't there, or fast-forward to when she's gone. I actually think of Arthur Conan Doyle's own real-life dillemma when he fell in love with Jean Leckie, but remained loyal to his wife. I wonder about a fanfic where John would be in that situation.

Having said all that, though, I think I'd like to get back to a place where I personally just Johnlock for a giggle, rather than anything serious, as I think the fanfic is what makes it fly. I got to a point where I took it all a little too seriously and I think now I just want to scale back and remember it's supposed to be for fun.

Anyway, sorry to sound so random; tis just my thoughts.

TC x

Harriet · August 20, 2015 7:19 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
You've got me thinking---you know, back in the 50's, 40's, 30's-- it was not uncommon for men to kiss each other in greeting. People weren't so worried about "The Gay", in those times. I mean, at that time, "Gay", just meant happy. So, I think, when we try to look at the Victorian Era and how men behaved with each other in the context of our own times-- well, it can be misleading and confusing. Of course, back then-- Homosexuality was an actual Crime-- or at least warranted commitment into the nuthouse.

It depends much on the respective culture and country, and sometimes one or two decades only, can make a big difference in behaviour. See 1920ies in Europe compared to 1930ies in fascist Europe.

About terms like "gay" or "ejaculate" (as we find our boys in ACD canon ejaculate frequently), they often had several meanings at the same time, with meaning depending on context, just as today where we can find the same.
"Gay" meant a lot of things during the centuries. An at least ambiguous use of "gay" in US slang seems to go back to the mid 19th century actually.
So looking at the language is not simply about transferring today's meaning into those days.

And in days when men didn't feel uncomfortable showing their affection physically, it didn't necessarily mean they were straight

SusiGo · September 7, 2015 8:03 am

Now this is really comprehensive:

http://bug-catcher-in-viridian-forest.tumblr.com/post/128518826221/sherlock-tv-series-heteronormativity-caught

Harriet · September 7, 2015 8:23 am

Comprehensive and consistent indeed

mrshouse · September 7, 2015 10:13 am

I like that VERY much.