BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Does John prefer "machine" Sherlock?

Vhanja · August 17, 2015 9:41 pm

Sherlock has done several things that were quite cruel without apologizing for them. Tube scene in TEH comes to mind, where he laughs so much that he cries when he sees how scared John is. And, of course, we have Janine again.

Anyhow, this thread is getting properly derailed, and we are returning to a topic we have discussed loads of times before.

nakahara · August 17, 2015 9:44 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Sherlock has done several things that were quite cruel without apologizing for them. Tube scene in TEH comes to mind, where he laughs so much that he cries when he sees how scared John is.

He apologised there. On his knees even.

Mary, on the other hand, never said sorry to him, nor to John who was so very hurt by her betrayal.

Vhanja · August 17, 2015 9:46 pm

You know what I mean. He doesn't apologize for what he is doing to John then and there. Neither did he apologize to Janine. Nor to John for the lab experiment in HoB.

And it's not only Mary getting the axe, John seem to be getting a lot of harsness on this board as of late a well. I don't like this trend myself.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 17, 2015 9:54 pm)

nakahara · August 17, 2015 9:58 pm

He apologised for "all the hurt that he caused him" (so the apology included a lot of things John could think of, for example THoB). I don´t know why he should continue apologising even more. With constantly angry person like John, he would end up apologising every single minute....

Still, even his more in jest, crazy apologies are thousand times better than absolute zero apology and stony face we get from Mary, I believe.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 3:07 am

nakahara wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
First example:

I don't see this at all as John dismissing Sherlock's feeling. This is where Sherlock tries to break the ice by using humour. That isn't good enough for John, he wants a proper apology. Which I understand and agree with (and I love this scene, how John is strong enough in himself to not give in by the slighest attempt to "break the ice" by Sherlock. Here Sherlock actually has to dig deep enough to give a proper apology, which he bothces in his own way, of course).
OK and what about TSOT? That weird scene where they are sitting on a park bench and John says: "Why are you suddenly so interested in another human being?", after which Sherlock answers: "I´m chatting... won´t try again."

In my eyes it was a dismissal with a D.

Vhanja wrote:
Fourth example:

This is probably (and unfortunately) fake tears. Confirmed by Moffat as well. No, John can't see the tears, but if you can get yourself to cry, your voice will shaking more, and you will sniffle - things John can hear through the phone.

But we had a few examples of Sherlock´s fake tears in the show and they look nothing alike, IMHO. Plus, Thompson wrote this episode, not Moffat.

I'm agreeing with Nakahara, here.
100%.

Either that, or Mofftiss is guilt of some *really* contradictory, uneven characterization---

Also, I concur; how much 'penance' does Sherlock really need to do?????

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 3:11 am

Vhanja wrote:
You know what I mean. He doesn't apologize for what he is doing to John then and there. Neither did he apologize to Janine. Nor to John for the lab experiment in HoB.

And it's not only Mary getting the axe, John seem to be getting a lot of harsness on this board as of late a well. I don't like this trend myself.

Just saying; but-- discussing not-so-nice traits of the characters is not "harshness." It's not "hating". It's not being mean to people who like those characters, either. You may disagree with other's opinions, but they're just that-- opinions. If we start trying to enforce a "you can only say nice things about John and Mary" policy, we might as well just close down the board. :-(

Sigh.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 3:12 am

nakahara wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
Sherlock has done several things that were quite cruel without apologizing for them. Tube scene in TEH comes to mind, where he laughs so much that he cries when he sees how scared John is.
He apologised there. On his knees even.

Mary, on the other hand, never said sorry to him, nor to John who was so very hurt by her betrayal.

Yep. Mary just takes John's forgiveness as her due-- and how dare he not do it quicker, even!

Schmiezi · August 18, 2015 4:52 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Vhanja wrote:
Sherlock has done several things that were quite cruel without apologizing for them. Tube scene in TEH comes to mind, where he laughs so much that he cries when he sees how scared John is.
He apologised there. On his knees even.

Mary, on the other hand, never said sorry to him, nor to John who was so very hurt by her betrayal.
Yep. Mary just takes John's forgiveness as her due-- and how dare he not do it quicker, even!

Again, I cannot help thinking how easy it would have been forthe producers to make Mary lovable again at the end of HLV. They could have let her apologize, show honest remorse. Would have taken only one minute of screen time. BUT they decided against it.

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 7:59 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
If we start trying to enforce a "you can only say nice things about John and Mary" policy, we might as well just close down the board. :-(

If writing about the negative (and only the negative) traits of Mary and John is what keeps this board running, then it's worse than I thought.

And I am not talking about enforcing anything. It is what it is. It just makes me a bit sad.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 18, 2015 8:12 am)

nakahara · August 18, 2015 8:35 am

Vhanja wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
If we start trying to enforce a "you can only say nice things about John and Mary" policy, we might as well just close down the board. :-(

If writing about the negative (and only the negative) traits of Mary and John is what keeps this board running, then it's worse than I thought.

And I am not talking about enforcing anything. It is what it is. It just makes me a bit sad.

We have threads "Why we love Mary" and "In defence of Dr Watson", where you can post any positive things that occur to you when you think about John and Mary.

I opened this thread with the goal to discuss John´s behaviour that I find puzzling. Sorry if it seems negative or harsh to you, but it can´t be helped if I want to start this discussion, I really can´t imagine how to circumvent the subject in the way that would only be positive to John.

Plus, I don´t find it to be criticism or harshness or negativity if we merely state the facts that happened in the show: like that Mary didn´t apologise. Similarily I don´t find it harsh when somebody points out that Sherlock lied to Janine or pulled John´s leg or manipulated some people for the case.

Last edited by nakahara (August 18, 2015 8:35 am)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 6:14 pm

Here's what makes me sad about this exchange: it seems to be okay to say the absolute worst of Sherlock, his methods, motives, his actions, and there's generally not a lot of pushback from it. But, let anyone even mention John's less likable traits, actions, as shown in the actual series, and inevitably, complaints about "being harsh", "negativity", or even "hating" will effectively shut down the discussion. I see it happening more and more, and if it keeps going, folks will find themselves self-censoring-- being that one cannot criticize the fictional character of John Watson. I worry that the dynamic we're creating will create a rift much like the one that wracked the fandom over Mary's actions on the show.

Another thing, I don't know how we can laud the bond between Sherlock and John, (whether romantic or platonic) if we consistently see Sherlock as inherently "bad" and John as inherently good only. Both characters have their faults, their foibles, their strengths and weaknesses. But if we treat one as the good, loved child and the other as the bad, unworthy one-- it kills the dynamic.

I don't think anyone wants to hurt anyone's feelings, here. I think we'd all just like the freedom to discuss the characters, without being obliged to constantly cheerlead and fangirl. :-)

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 6:20 pm

I don't see either Sherlock or John as inheritly "the bad one" and "the good one". They both have their flaws and their strengths. To me, that is what makes them interesting. I don't need to defend or agree with everything they say or do. I am ok with Sherlock sometimes being cruel in a way I can never excuse or defend. I am ok with John having anger and temper issues and sometimes being not the most delicate person when it comes to expressing emotions.

Nothing of this makes me likes the characters any less. On the contrary - it makes me like them both more. Because it makes them nuanced and interesting. Nothing bores me more than a square-jawed knight in shining armour with no flaws.

So I don't mind talking about John's flaws. Just as I don't mind talking about Sherlock's flaws. What I find sad is that it seems to be so unbalanced. It's not that we discuss John's flaws - it's more that I get the feeling that people don't like him. People love Sherlock, and don't want to discuss his flaws because all of his flaws can be defended. But John's flaws can never be defended. Or even understood. Just critizised.

I don't mind discussing the flaws of either one of them. But I get the impresssion that people LOVE Sherlock and severly dislike John. THAT is what makes me sad.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 18, 2015 6:21 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · August 18, 2015 7:39 pm

Actually, I think that for the first two seasons, there was more of a pro-John attitude in fandom. It's taken quite a while after s3 aired, I think, for people to talk about a couple of things-- John is s3 was not the same guy people had seen in s1 & 2.

But back to the conversation; yes, I think that John is more at ease with a "machine-like" Sherlock. I don't think he likes having his assumptions challenged.

nakahara · August 18, 2015 7:44 pm

Well, as you have said, John is a grey character and so he possesses an unflattering qualities next to a positive ones. Which is good - would be a Mary Sue (or Gary Stu) otherwise.

I can say for myself that I certainly don´t severely dislike John (and I doubt there are many people on this forum who do). Yet at the moment I am also not interested at heaping gushing praise on him, simply because in my eyes it´s not needed. What I am interested in is discussing his puzzling behaviour (his lip service to Sherlock´s compassion versus his seeming prefence for Sherlock´s coldness in praxis), because that´s what I find interesting. It´s as simple as that.

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 7:44 pm

Well, he did go through some heavy stuff he never had to deal with in S1 and S2.

Back on topic:

I don't think John prefers Sherlock as a machine. But, as others have mentioned, I think he is used to relying on Sherlock always having the answer. And he is in himself bad at "this kind of stuff". I think those two combined might give the impression that he prefers machine Sherlock. But I have yet to see any inicident where John reacts to Sherlock being emotional in itself (but he can react to Sherlock lashing out while being emotional).

Edit: Also, there is the fact that John is going through some really tough issues in S3. Sherlock's return, his inabillity to be happy with his newly married life, the revelation of his wife's identity, Sherlock being shot, Sherlock shooting someone and being exiled... I don't think anyone of us would be at our most patient and best game going through all that.

Last edited by Vhanja (August 18, 2015 7:53 pm)

nakahara · August 18, 2015 7:52 pm

Is it possible then, that John is simply comfortable with the idea of his friend being like that because it gives him a certain sense of security (machines being infallible and all that)? And so it makes him uneasy and disappointed when that illusion shatters?

Last edited by nakahara (August 18, 2015 7:53 pm)

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 7:55 pm

nakahara wrote:
Is it possible then, that John is simply comfortable with the idea of his friend being like that because it gives him a certain sense of security (machines being infallible and all that)? And so it makes him uneasy and disappointed when that illusion shatters?

Yes, I think so. I think he is so used to Sherlock always having a way out it makes him uneasy when Sherlock doesn't. Because John certainly doesn't - Sherlok is supposed to be the genius here. Sherlock has spent years building up a persona of being more clever than anyone else, and John believes it. And so when it really matters (for instance with Sholto), when John is emotionally invested, and Sherlock seem clueless, I think John's anger is born out of worry, unease and frustration.

nakahara · August 18, 2015 8:17 pm

That can be, I can imagine that. But now I wonder how would this trait of his continue in S4? Will he gradually learn to accept these chinks in Sherlock´s armour? Or will Sherlock miraculously reverse into his former colder persona so he wouldn´t need to?

Vhanja · August 18, 2015 8:31 pm

That will be one of the interesting bits of S4.

If this were a story where John was the hero (like Harry Potter or LotR), Sherlock (his mentor) would die and John would have to use everything he has learned from his mentor to stand on his own two feet an be his own hero.

But we know that will never happen. This isn't John's show. It's Sherlock's show. Sherlock and John - in that order. So in my opinion, Sherlock will always be the lead and John will always follow. That is what they do, it's their dynamic. And if one of them fail to do so, the other will crumble. We've seen both of them do that in S3.

RavenMorganLeigh · August 19, 2015 3:25 am

nakahara wrote:
That can be, I can imagine that. But now I wonder how would this trait of his continue in S4? Will he gradually learn to accept these chinks in Sherlock´s armour? Or will Sherlock miraculously reverse into his former colder persona so he wouldn´t need to?

I've been thinking about this thread, off and on all day-- I'm in the middle of plotting a fic-- and this subject really makes me think carefully about John's characterization.

Here's *my* reading of where it *could* go. Qualifier: Looking at the show only, and John's actions *on the show*.

I think John will (based on HLV) probably distance himself even more from Sherlock-- instead, we'll see John, Mary and Toddler-- as seperate. I think John will be focused on being a "good husband and parent." Being that Mofftiss has put out dire warnings of the "darkest season yet", someone will probably die, and bring John and Sherlock (sorta) back together. I suspect that , whoever dies-- John is probably going to blame Sherlock for it-- and the next hiatus will be even more fraught with anxiety. :-)

Sherlock may actually become even colder, but better behaved. All business. Either that, or they'll milk the "sociopath" angle for all it's worth. After all, they did make him a murderer in the last episode.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (August 19, 2015 3:27 am)