BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Vhanja · August 1, 2015 9:29 pm

nakahara wrote:
What is suspicious is that attack on John could only be accomplished at one specific night - Guy Fawkes night, which is significant for its bonfires. So people shadowing John could only attack him in front of Sherlock´s house at that specific time, or their bonfire plan would fail. That means they would need the absolute certainty that John would be there at that moment.... and yet only Mary knew that John, otherwise estranged from Sherlock, is heading there to reconcile with a detective. So if they had no informations about his whereabouts from Mary, why would those two gorillas wait for John there? After he made a scene at three restaurants and publicly attacked Sherlock, that was the last place they could await him....

(I admit Mary has no motive to help Magnussen, still, this is suspicious....)

All they would need to do was to shadow John. For all we know, they might have microphones set up in the clinic where he works to learn of his plan for the afternoon. If he had decided to go straight home, go to the pub or go do some groceries, I reckon the outcome would have been the same. Only in a different street.

SusiGo · August 1, 2015 9:29 pm

I fully agree, nakahara. What if not just Magnussen but also Moriarty was involved in some way? Someone wrote a meta about the different colours in which the messages during the bike ride are presented.

Vhanja · August 1, 2015 9:32 pm

I always figured the colours of the messages indicated how John was becoming "warmer" as time was running out.

mrshouse · August 1, 2015 9:37 pm

I don't remember about the colours, could you link to that meta, Susi?

Dorothy83 · August 1, 2015 9:40 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I always figured the colours of the messages indicated how John was becoming "warmer" as time was running out.

Same thing I thought, too. And I also think that all they had to do was shadow him - although I don't think they did, because then why didn't they just take him as he was leaving his clinic? Why in front of Baker Street?

I think Magnussen just put them in front of Baker Street because it was the easiest place to find him. I don't think Magnussen knew they weren't talking, to be honest. Yeah they fought in public places but that didn't reach the papers, did it? (Which is weird as well, Sherlock's 'fame' seems to make headlines only sometimes? Like, he is doing drugs, the papers talk about that, but he gets attacked in a public place, a five star restaurant, and by his ex flat mate no less, and the tabloids don't pick up on it?)

nakahara · August 1, 2015 9:45 pm

There´s a quick flashback in one of the episodes, probably TEH, that captures newspapers with a headline, that an angry guy attacked Sherlock in a kebab place... so his quarrel with John has made it to the newspapers.

Vhanja · August 1, 2015 9:48 pm

nakahara wrote:
There´s a quick flashback in one of the episodes, probably TEH, that captures newspapers with a headline, that an angry guy attacked Sherlock in a kebab place... so his quarrel with John has made it to the newspapers.

Lol, I didn't know that. What an awesome detail!

nakahara · August 1, 2015 9:56 pm

Vhanja wrote:
nakahara wrote:
There´s a quick flashback in one of the episodes, probably TEH, that captures newspapers with a headline, that an angry guy attacked Sherlock in a kebab place... so his quarrel with John has made it to the newspapers.
Lol, I didn't know that. What an awesome detail!

Yeah, it mentioned a shouting match at kebab place and a ghost of still officially dead Sherlock who suddenly was raised from the dead:

lil · August 1, 2015 11:58 pm

We know Cam set up the bonfire thing to test how much Sherlock cared for John.We know Mary had contact with Cam before the wedding because of Marys reaction to the Cam telegram.
The idea that Mary was involved in the bonfire scenario , or had knowledge of it , comes from Mary taking the text messages to Sherlock.
That wasted time , Mary was fully able to decode them and thus knew where John was.Why didn't Mary go rescue John herself , why were the later messages addressed to Sherlock , why didn't Cam message Sherlock directly.
Thesis is , Cam told his puppet Mary to take the messages to Sherlock.

Wouldn't Cam also need to test how far Mary would go to keep her secret?

Mary may not have been behind the bonfire scenario but it does seem she was somehow involved , Cam planned very carefully , he was certain Sherlock would - get the message and go after John- so how was he sure that would happen by sending Mary messages?
Simple answer is he told Mary to take them to Sherlock.

Liberty · August 2, 2015 6:15 am

I think it's also possible that Mary seeks out Sherlock because, although she knows it's a skip-code, she doesn't know what it means. She knows codes but she isn't a detective. She doesn't know where to go to save John. Magnussen may well have predicted that (that Mary would go straight to Sherlock Holmes - it's an obvious thing to do!).

I do still think it's a bit unnecessary for the messages to come through Mary rather than direct to Sherlock. A very clumsy reason is that this is one of the clues that we and Sherlock are given that she's not what she seems. The writers were playing with that idea and maybe Magnussen was too. Sherlock should have considered that there was something unusual about Mary knowing codes. Maybe Magnussen was testing whether Sherlock would guess something was up, or perhaps he couldn't resist hinting at the power he had. Maybe it was another taunt to Mary (like the message at the wedding). At some point he wanted John and Sherlock to know about Mary's past because he was going to use it to manipulate them.

Last edited by Liberty (August 2, 2015 8:54 am)

Vhanja · August 2, 2015 10:35 am

But, again, Mary being involved makes no sense at all seeing as she would do anything to keep John. It doesn't make sense at all that she would then be a part of a plot that would put John in mortal danger.

Lola Red · August 2, 2015 10:56 am

I was writing something completely else, but then something just connected in my mind: Mary befriends Janine, long enough in advance that she becomes her bridesmaid, but she officially only learns that CAM is after her on her wedding day. She is only using Janine, she admits to that. So she was after CAM all along. The points some of you made indicate that CAM, on his part, had been after Mary for a while, too. I don’t think she was working for him, she would not need Janine then, nor would she be so surprised during the wedding, but could it be that she was trying to hide in Sherlock’s shadow, thinking she would be safe with the world’s greatest –and-only- consulting detective looming over her? Anderson was connecting the dots and knew Sherlock was on his way back to England from the newspapers. There is no reason why Mary should have not picked up on the same hints. We know that she and John had only been together for a short time before he tried to propose. Was she seeking out John, knowing fully well that Sherlock was on his way back? That would also explain her pushing to get those two back together. It never really made sense to me why a trained assassin would seek out Sherlock Holmes, but in that scenario it would actually made sense. At least until the shooting. Why shoot Sherlock if he was the thing offering her some kind of protection? Something must have changed. Either Mary fell for John and his love became more important than Sherlock’s protection (terribly cliché, but would fit with what we are told on screen) or Mary understood the pressure-point-chain. CAM was never interested in an individual rouge assassin or an army doctor or even a consulting detective, he was after Mycroft, the most powerful man in the country. Remove the consulting detective, and the assassin and the army doctor fade back into oblivion. But why would a professional killer choose such a risky (=survivable) place for the bullet- sentiment?

Lola Red · August 2, 2015 11:23 am

On the on-going discussion: I do not believe Mary was working for CAM in arranging the bonfire. Why would she be surprised to hear from him at her wedding if she was his puppet all along? If she was planted, I think it was by someone else, someone who knows and/or wants to prove he/she is cleverer than Sherlock. Also, it would not fit with CAM’s MO: he usually bases his pressure point on actual missteps his victims have conducted, not on something he had to arrange himself. He wanted to control the most powerful man in the country, I don’t think he was gambling it all on the chance that John Watson would fall for and marry his pet-assassin, reconcile with Sherlock and Mycroft failing to do a background check (still, I find, the most baffling detail in the whole Mary-affair). Finally, if Mary was CAM’s pet, the bonfire would not have been necessary. Mary knew Sherlock wanted John back at his side and she also knew that John shaves for Sherlock Holmes. If CAM had access to the same information she had, he would have known that the pressure-point-chain was still intact, without having to risk his pet giving herself away.

Liberty · August 2, 2015 11:38 am

It does seem odd that Mary ended up working with John, and while Sherlock was away. Quite a coincidence. But yes, using Janine suggests that Mary wasn't working for CAM. However, at the very least, she might have been keeping tabs on him. And there's a big suggestion that she had other reasons for killing him in the end, when she says that there are people like her because people like him should be killed. It feels like there's more to killing him than just keeping her secret safe. Maybe it's just that he's despicable and causing deaths indirectly. The wedding seems to be when she realises that he's on to her, and that seems to speed up the assassination (it happens shortly after she gets back from honeymoon, possibly at the first time when John's conveniently out of the way for an extended period, and she thinks she knows where Magnussen is going to be).

I don't think she could ever have planned on getting Sherlock on her side and oblivious to her past - she couldn't have known that she'd be able to charm him. Sherlock should have been a huge risk to her. Which does make it kind of odd that she never seems to see him that way before the point where she shoots him.

Whisky · August 2, 2015 11:51 am

I really dont get that with Janine. esp when Mary doesnt deny it when sherlock suggests she
Befriended Janine only to get close to Magnusson... so it was always her goal to bring him down or extract the Information. But what does she do?
This means that despite the wedding, she is still planning sth. She didnt leave her past behind yet.
And at the wedding the CAM telegram means she has appeared on his radar.
But how? If he knew from Janine, she (Janine) must have been playing his game, being blackmailed by him.
And then i wonder: Janine and sherlock ... was it set up by CAM? Her reaction in the Hospital suggests she really liked sherlock despite it all.
Is Janine a free Agent?? Or is she only a Tool? She seems to play both sides of the game.

(Sorry for bad spelling - my tablet keyboard drives me crazy)

Last edited by Whisky (August 2, 2015 12:00 pm)

Whisky · August 2, 2015 12:10 pm

Lola Red wrote:
but could it be that she was trying to hide in Sherlock’s shadow, thinking she would be safe . (....) Why shoot Sherlock if he was the thing offering her some kind of protection? Something must have changed.

This is an interesting thought. But the feeling i get while watching doesnt quite fit.
How to explain her reaction to sherlock in the restaurant? If she already knew he was alive?
And visiting his grave with John? That would really make her a unsympathetic liar!

Lola Red · August 2, 2015 2:00 pm

I admit there are some things that are not 100% convincing, but those are the same things that would apply if Mary had been planted (though taking away her initiative). The “official” version, that Mary simply fell in love with John, is also problematic (but possible), as any (ex-)assassin could be expected to try to avoid Sherlock, instead of welcoming him in her life, should be picked out by Mycroft and the laziness of the universe to place her at John’s side just in time for Sherlock’s return. I do not yet see a truly elegant solution here. Mary might just not be the smartest of assassins (as evidenced by her lack of success in killing either Sherlock or CAM, nor keeping the former out of danger), but Mycroft’s slip up is very OOC. I have thought about Mycroft planting Mary (would explain his apparent lack of background check, he knew when Sherlock would come back, he is constantly trying to remind Sherlock of the dangers of sentiment), but I cannot see him letting her get away with endangering the life of his baby brother. For all of Mycroft’s shady business, his love for Sherlock seems sincere. So Mary “hiding” in Sherlock’s shadow answers at least some questions (plus there had at some point been a discussion here that Mary was not actually that surprised in the restaurant). That Mary is a liar is a fact, the question is (and has been for a while) her motives, as every possibility leads to as many questions as it provides answers.

lil · August 2, 2015 3:56 pm

I agree that theres a lot of wibbly wobbly writing with the bonfire thing.
I think Cam had been in contact with Mary before the wedding though , it looked like she recognised his name and seemed worried not surprised when Sherlock read the telegram.
It kind of makes sense to me that Mary knew of Cams bonfire plot, (that according to cam didn't endanger John at all) , because thats likely what made Mary decide to kill Cam.
Maybe she had been or was willing to go along with Cams blackmail until he used John?

SusiGo · August 2, 2015 8:22 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Well, someone just mentioned her parents in a telegram...which never existed, so she knew something was amiss.

To be exact, he mentioned her family, not her parents. The question is if he was hinting at her real family (she must have one, mustn't she?) or at a family in a metaphorical sense like "criminal family" or an organisation like the CIA, etc.

lil · August 3, 2015 9:49 pm

Swanpride wrote:
Well, someone just mentioned her parents in a telegram...which never existed, so she knew something was amiss.

True and interesting , Mary could have been worried about her orphan lie being blown , and her real family.
Also the poppet nickname seems familiar and notable....

When then did Cam make himself known to Mary if not before the wedding?
No.Mary befriended Janine long before the actual wedding , Mary was making plans for Magnussen a long time before the wedding telegram.

Last edited by lil (August 3, 2015 10:01 pm)