BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » If we assume that Mary lives, how do you think S4 would play out?

melissak334 · January 4, 2015 5:04 am

There are plenty of fans who think she is going to die because of canon and the fact that the show is supposed to be about Sherlock and Watson. But let's pretend for the sake of discussion as though Word of God says that Mary will make it to the final episode of S4 alive.

To me, either you can get rid of both (via death or running away or whatever) or you can get keep both. You can't keep the baby and get rid of Mary, because that means that John is the sole parent for this kid and would be both too angsty and too sitcomy. You can't get rid of the baby and keep Mary, because then it would be more of a story circle than a story arc. John/Mary get married, John/Mary concieve baby, baby dies before birth, John/Mary return to previous state of affairs but with more angst.

So in summary: If we assume that Mary lives, then we must assume that Baby Watson lives.

As far as S4 plotlines go, I don't think very many fans would want an episode that focuses on the birth of Baby Watson, and that's a very difficult thing not to focus on, since it's a major event in all of their lives that would be happening only 4 months after the last episode of S3. So either they skip past the birth entirely or they turn it into something dramatic like "Mary's having contractions while we're chasing down a murderer." or "John is about to miss the birth of his child because he's being held at gunpoint by Moriarty's brother."

My initial assumption was that they wouldn't open with two years later as they did with S3, but to be honest I would rather have a 2-year-old baby watson than a 1-month-old baby watson. If skipped over the birth and first few months, the characters don't have to go crazy every time she (??) comes into the scene.

I believe someone on here mentioned that the show runners said that Mary's talents as an assassin would not be relevant. In which case, I could see her being part of the team socially, and it was kind of set up that way but she doesn't need to be part of the actual cases.

Liberty · January 4, 2015 8:15 am

There's something they said on the commentary about Mary (whether you choose to believe the writers or not) - she's very like John and Sherlock in that she can't go for more than 6 months without an adventure. (She certainly won't be left at home when John goes off on his adventure at the beginning of HLV, even if she doesn't have time to get dressed!). So although it would be convenient to have Mary alive, providing childcare while John has adventures, it doesn't seem to fit with how the writers envisage the character.

There's also a slight issue in leaving a child alone with somebody who may be at risk (of being murdered). Are they sure that killing Magnussen has made her safe?

I don't think the team would work as a threesome, and I think that's another thing the writers have been clear about - that it's Sherlock and John's story.

silverblaze · January 4, 2015 4:13 pm

I think it's quite possible that they keep her after the special. It's just that they said that the special would be 'devastating' that I assumed that Mary dies. But, those kinds of comments are excellent lying opportunities of course. I'm actually quite warming to the idea of having her around longer although I don't believe she'll be there forever.

If they kept Mary, I don't think they'll make her part of the crime solving duo. Maybe it could work but it isn't in the originals, so if they do it, it'd only be for one case or so. Also, she'd have a baby or young child,so I don't see her doing much assassin work either. It's possible that she's involved in a side plot, maybe one that is related to her past. And then tease this side plot slowly over a couple of episodes or so.
Or if all else fails, they could still do what Doyle did, have her be John's wife, but mostly offscreen.

RavenMorganLeigh · July 23, 2015 9:03 pm

Now that months and months have passed since the original post-- I'm curious what people think, now? Me, (as much as I don't like the idea) I think mary will stay and be part of the team for at least part of s4.

mrshouse · July 23, 2015 9:17 pm

Well, to be honest, that would be too far away from what I learned to love as a show that I might ( well, never say never, but still...) have a hard time sticking around... But that's life, I guess. Though I'd be heartbroken.

Dorothy83 · July 23, 2015 9:40 pm

I reckon Mary wil stay, perhaps for the first episode, but they'll kill her off quite soon, because doing it in the final episode would be too cliched. And in the first episode, for the time she's there, she'll be in the 'background' in order for them to set up the premises for her demise and the whole drama around it (eg someone coming after her, Moriarty doing something to her, etc).

tonnaree · July 23, 2015 10:22 pm

My dream.
Baby is either a lie or not John's.
Mary is shown to be a true villian and John's forgiveness of her a lie. I want her to be so bad that any love John might still feel for her is distroyed.
John and Sherlock must work together against Mary.
Even better would be for Mary to threaten Sherlock's life and John would have to take her out.

Disclaimer. My desire for this plot line is not solely based on the fact that I support Johnlock. This would still be the way I would want things to work out even if I saw John and Sherlock as only friends.
I think this scenerio would be surprising and dark and exciting! Much more so than Mary being a stay at home Mom who helps with cases until she dies somehow tragicaly, giving us, once again, a heartbroken John.

Not saying that this is what will happen but it's what I want to happen.

Dorothy83 · July 24, 2015 7:08 am

I have always had a feeling that Mary isn't powerful enough now as a character to turn out to be a baddie. After shooting Sherlock, and with that terrifying stunt at the hospital with him and in the empty house - she had great potential. I was intrigued.

But then the whining about 'omg I love John' started, the crying about 'Mary Watson' started, and (at least in my eyes) she went back to being the usual female in distress character that had to be forgiven (as per Moffat's bueprint).

So, to me, there will now be no going back to 'evil' Mary. She's said her piece and we now know her intentions weren't 'evil' - she was just stomping her feet and panicking about losing her husband. It'd be almost comical to me if she turned around and started trying to pull the 'evil' face again.

Whisky · July 24, 2015 9:10 pm

I think John and Mary could just fall out like a normal couple. They had a tough time, they tried forgiveness, it might work for a while... and then maybe another guy comes along, Mary likes him, John is not too sad to go back to Sherlock or in his own little flat, and that's that. I think we had the big drama already, and I'm rather sure by now any drama in series 4 won't be about Mary. Why not have a normal ending for their relationship. I do think this will happen sooner or later. Maybe in the first episode Mary and John will have happy married life, and why not, but at some point, as in the originals, Mary will leave... wherever to.
I really would like tonnarees scenario, simply because it would be exciting, but I agree with Dorothy that "evil Mary" is done (although I don't agree that she has never been evil... I think she has a quite dark character).

Last edited by Whisky (July 24, 2015 9:11 pm)

tonnaree · July 25, 2015 12:20 am

You don't think Mary could fake those emotions? Sherlock can cry at the drop of a deerstalker.
I'm not saying this is how it will turn out but I still think it's totally plausable for Mary to be a real villian.

Liberty · July 25, 2015 7:15 am

I think there's still room for her to be a villain, and I think she could even be rather good (she's quite sinister at points in HLV). I think it might be a twist too far, in that they've already done the twist where Mary appears to be a villain in HLV.    Much as I would like an explanation for her shooting Sherlock (I want to know why they made him almost die if we're meant to believe it's "surgery"), in a way, I don't want the surgery explanation to be wrong - or we're going back and forward again, and what's the point of Sherlock's deduction? I think all that will be left in HLV, and won't be gone over again. Mary could have wanted Sherlock alive and could still be a villain.

I think Mary being a villain would impact on HLV in another way.   Sherlock killed Magnussen because of Mary. That might be an ironic twist too far, if he'd ended up murdering the person who had the means of removing his future archenemy.

If Mary isn't a villain, then I feel we need some explanation of her past.   But I have a horrible feeling (and I hope this isn't true) that John burning the data stick is a nod to the audience - that's all you're going to get.   I think that with such an interesting past something has to come back to haunt her, but I don't know if we're ever going to get the full story.

I don't think she can be left as just John's wife in the background, though. I don't think that would work in the modern story, especially not when they've already given her such a big storyline and an interesting background.   Mary herself couldn't take a back seat indefinitely (she insists on coming to the drug den, for instance).

Dorothy83 · July 25, 2015 8:21 am

I think we as fans sometimes forget to remember that Mofttiss have to build the story on different levels - yes, they are building a story, but they also have to do so following the rules of storytelling - especially when writing for such a specific medium (TV). You need to keep the audience interested, but also you have to vary the tension and provide relief at times. So, in the way I saw it, the explanation we got from Sherlock in the Baker Street domestic is the one we are meant to accept - Mary didn't mean to kill him, hence why she shot him in the chest/abdomen and not in the head, and she saved him that way. Since he was a witness, had Mary been a different, less scrupulous criminal with no 'sentiment' for Sherlock she would have killed him and eliminated the threat that he was posing after seeing her - but she didn't, because she didn't want him dead.

Now. We, as the audience, are not meant to know all this beforehand of course - that goes against all the rules of good storytelling. We are instead meant to suffer with the protagonist, fear for his life, be confused just as he is on Mary's motives, and root for him to survive. So that's why they made him flatline at the hospital. That's a major point in the structure of the episode, and gave Moffat the chance to explore Sherlock's feelings and tell us something else about his background and relationships - as well as break our heart and make us suffer.

I think we tend to forget that the 'technical' aspects of storytelling are just as important as the 'content' of the actual story. We want to analyse everything by logic and cause-consequence chain. But imagine how it would have been if Moffat had made Mary say, "Wait, Sherlock - I have to shoot you, but don't worry I don't want you to die, I still care about you, it's just surgery". (Obviously this would have been a shit line to begin with , but let's pretend for the sake of the example).

The message at the end is exactly that, but Moffat had to crank up the tension to keep us interested and entertained. (And I think the mind palace scene while he flatlines was one of the best, most heart wrenching and most beautiful scenes I've seen in a TV show).

The feeling you have about the USB stick - I'm afraid that you are right. I am sure they will not go back to that. Why should they? They have explored 'Mary the killer' in HLV. Her character has done what she needed to do. John has burned the stick now - it's him drawing a line behind all of that. She is Mary Watson now.
Someone or something could come back to get her, but let's face it, for that to happen we don't need to know more about her background - we already know why someone could want her dead.

I think making Mary a villain again would be just a repetition, and I don't see any reason for them to do that. It's done, she made a mistake, she obviously has sentiments for John (and Sherlock) - she's now Mary Watson. Why should they go there again? Wouldn't that just be a repetition of her turning around in her (silly) ninja outfit? We've had that already. They need to move on.

She won't be in the background, per se, but remember she is supposed to be pregnant now so someone has to look after that baby (if she is ever born) (zzzzzzzz).

I want to add that I am not a fan of Mary at all and I hope she goes quickly -especially because I don't believe she has anything else to add at this point. And if the only reason Mofftiss made her pregnant was just to get her out of the way because she needs to look after the baby - well, I'll say it now - I WILL LITERALLY THROW MYSELF OUT OF A WINDOW.

SolarSystem · July 25, 2015 11:16 am

All those examples would make the show into something I'd no longer be interested in watching. John bringing the baby with him to a crime scene...? Thanks, but no thanks.
I think I see where you're coming from, and it might work with other tv shows, but I don't see this working here. Mofftiss do have a comic talent, definitely, but there are things I just don't want so see on "Sherlock". I love the fact that this isn't a detective show but a show about a detective. But in my imagination it's just not a show about a detective and his blogger's wife and child.

mrshouse · July 25, 2015 11:27 am

I feel similar. I feel this would be too much of Dallas and alikes.
I feel Mary would have to take a bit of backseat and not show up too much. After S3 I would prefer not too much concentration on the Watsons relationship again and drama around Mary. I would prefer concentration on the boys and their work together.

SolarSystem · July 25, 2015 1:06 pm

Totally fine if it's not different to you.

Morton · July 25, 2015 6:02 pm

Going by how they like to keep it in the family then Babybatch plays the part of baby Watson.

Lola Red · July 25, 2015 6:02 pm

How could the season play out if Mary lives through it?

Speculation time, hooray!

I’d say the cliff-hanger will, in good old tradition, be solved with somewhat of an anti-climax: My guess is, Mycroft was behind the GIF and Moftiss did not lie after all when they said that Moriarty is dead.

I fear we will get some cutsie Sherlock-interacting-with-a-baby-moments, possibly concluded by a) Sherlock is awful with children that young and is henceforward not allowed to be alone with the child again or b) Sherlock is the world’s best baby-sitter.

Lestrade and Molly finally get together, because they both bloody deserve to be with someone who loves them.

Someone from Mary’s past comes back, looking for revenge. Mrs Hudson will be caught in the crossfire and we will lose our favourite landlady.

Mary lives, but she and the baby have to be put on a plane and send into witness protection to keep them safe. John moves back into 221B, because that is where Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson need to be for all eternity (I know they are not, not even in the canon, but they should be, they really should.)

The big twist this season: The “red herring” from ASIP was not a red herring after all (Sherlock’s “arch enemy” turns out to be Mycroft, not Moriarty). The cabbie did not lie when he said that “there is a name no-one says… and I will not say it either”. Remember how both Moriarty and CAM were trying to get to Mycroft through Sherlock? They were not threatening, they were advertising. Mycroft is recruiting some of Britain’s most dangerous criminal masterminds for secret government service, which makes him both Sherlock’s true arch enemy, but also someone he cannot act against, because in the end, they are both on the side of the angles.

Dorothy83 · July 26, 2015 7:12 am

Gah, reading all those examples made me feel a bit queasy! And for me, there's no connection with the Sherlock being drunk thing or him showing a beheding to a child. Sherlock being drunk = a ONE OFF, unexpected, funny for a couple of minutes, but I wouldn't have liked it if it had been going on for longer than it has or if it had happened again. Archie = never saw the appeal, didn't care about him, not interested in seeing him again.

John lugging a baby on the crime scene and Lestrade rolling his eyes and complaining? NO. NO. I would definitely, definitely not interested in a show where John has to juggle a baby in order to do what he's supposed to (which is go on adventures with Sherlock) and baby/Mary/nappies/babysitter-Mrs Hudson jokes have to happen every time they need to explain what's happening with the baby (and they would need to, because they can't introduce a baby and then just ignore it as if it wasn't a huge part of John's life).

NO. God no. Sorry, just had a bit of an allergic reaction there!

nakahara · July 26, 2015 7:24 am

Dorothy83 wrote:
John lugging a baby on the crime scene and Lestrade rolling his eyes and complaining? NO. NO. I would definitely, definitely not interested in a show where John has to juggle a baby in order to do what he's supposed to (which is go on adventures with Sherlock)

What´s more, John in this show is supposed to be a "voice of common reason" and a foil to Sherlock´s excentricity and slight irresponsibility. I can´t picture this John being so stupid and irresponsible as to carry a baby to a potentially dangerous crime-site and complicate some criminal investigation with it. It would be very OOC, I think.

nakahara · July 26, 2015 8:31 am

John then returns to Afghanistan because, obviously, he has no further use in the story (except babysitting) now that Mary has been added as the new Sherlock´s assistant.