I hope the same. And I am quite confident that the narrative arc will continue to concentrate on Sherlock and John with Mary providing some temporary high drama.
 

Last edited by SusiGo (July 16, 2015 8:13 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

It's like in order to defend Mary, we default to this "Well, Sherlock's a monster, so he's much worse than Mary! Mary's practically a saint compared to Sherlock,"-- stance. And it doesn't work. Sherlock jumped to save people--- and Mary shot Sherlock so she could keep lying to John. 

I found myself wondering---and this is a serious question: do most people who have a very Pro-Mary stance have a dislike of Sherlock to begin with? I really am just curious. I'd love to have honest answers on this...

I also wonder about people's feelings about John? Don't we care that he's married to a woman he doesn't even know? You want to talk about betrayal-- why is this okay? Even if you don't like Sherlock, what about John and his feelings, his pain? Doesn't he matter at all? Or, is Mary's dream of the suburbian house, husband and baby the only thing that's important? YIKES.

I’ll try to answer both of your questions, even though I would not really identify as pro-Mary, but I do not hate her guts either.

For your first question: I like Sherlock, love him even. As a character I find him incredibly fascinating, even though I see him possibly as few shades darker than the majority around here. But my opinion of Mary has little to do with my love for Sherlock. What I like about her (or more precisely in talking about her, I do not feel much love for the idea of a crime solving trio, I would rather have Mary fade a bit more to the background and leave centre stage for the two boys) is that I find it interesting to think about how things could have ended up the way they did, without disregarding, let’s say, the first two episodes of the last season. How could she have been that loving woman, who helped John in quite possibly the hardest time of his life AND be an ex-assassin? How could she be so loving, including and understanding with Sherlock AND still shoot him? I like it when tv does that, makes me think (It is one of the reasons I like GoT: even if a character does horrible things, you kind of understand how they ended up there). Of cause, it might be that it turns out that this softer side of Mary was all an act, though I hope not. To say it with Sherlock’s words, I would find that “Dull. Boring. Predictable.” I would rather have her keep both sides. It is one of the things that I love about Sherlock. He is not the knight in shining amour. He is rude, downright dangerous and cruel at times, but also loving, gentle, willing to give his life for those he holds dear. I just love grey characters, maybe that is why Mary appeals somewhat to me.

For you second question. It is, of cause, not ok to betray John, but I also do not see a way how she could have told him. I will, until proven otherwise, give her the benefit of the doubt and say that until the telegram at her wedding ended with CAM, she did not know that her old life would come back to hunt her. So I would see it as a self-imposed witness-protection program: If she wanted to start anew, she had to leave her old life behind and never look back. Through the events of HLV she has hurt him, terribly. That is a fact that will stand and that they need to deal with in some form or another. The thing where Mary seems to be really good for John I think is in her being able to be there for him, when he was at his lowest, to hold his hand at Sherlock’s grave and get him out of his grieve. John, I think, likes to think of himself as an “everyman”, as ordinary (that is what dealing with the Holmes brothers on a regular basis does to you), but he is anything but. He is “a man who could not stand the suburbs for more than a month without storming a crack den and beating up a junkie” and I think that, due to her past, Mary understands that. I think that might be why she was so inclusive towards Sherlock from the start, because she saw how miserable John had been without that side of his life. Without the shooting from HLV, I think she could have been perfect for him. John needs the illusion for himself that Sherlock is the madmen and he is the sane one. But John also needs someone at his side who thrives in danger, who will keep calm in the middle of a storm, how can pull him out of his misery if his life gets almost too hard to bear. For a while at least, that was Mary. We will have to see if she can be that again or if the damage to great to build upon anew.
 

If Mary had given up ..err.. asassinating... why did she still have all her asassin gear? Building climbing kit, gun, sliencer, asassin outfit.... You'd think if she'd really reformed, she'd have gottenb rid of that stuff, as it could be used as evidence against her. I'm partiularly thinking of the gun and ballistics. And we never really see her acting as a nurse, do we? Isn't she more of a receptionist?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (July 16, 2015 10:37 pm)

Swanpride wrote:

 Johnlock is great, but it is even better to see it in different situations, how it withstand the test of time, marriage, perhaps even children.

I am sure that Sherlock and John's marriage will withstand the test of time and that they would even be able to deal with the presence of children. 
 

Last edited by SusiGo (July 17, 2015 7:48 am)

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

Okay--here's another serious question on assumptions: (oh, alright--so it's a barrage of questions)

Why (when we know that Mary is a Liar) do we believe that she actually has retired? Why do we assume that she was more like a spy, and NOT a rogue asassin-- when that's stated pretty plainly in the show? And, considering that she had all her asassin equipment-- could she not still be activley working? Woulnd't her fear at hearing that Moriarty might still be alive be a red flag that perhaps she worked for him?

Who said something about a spy? I would love to hear that. My own theory of Mary’s career is a bit more boring I fear. I do not think just because she is a liar, she lied about everything. I still tend to think that her love for John was real and that she really did like Sherlock, for example. I always assumed (and let’s note that all of this is of cause pure speculation) that she either killed people who she felt did not deserve to be killed or had to let people go that she felt should have been dead during her time with the CIA and then went rouge to kill whomever she thought “had it coming”. After a while that got too dangerous to continue, so she went into hiding and assumed her Mary-personality. Of cause it is also possible that she did the deeds that she thought would make John stop loving her during her freelance time. But somehow I think it more likely to end up killing someone who did not deserve it when you work for someone else and were not free to follow your own moral compass (however flawed that one might be).

I still tend to think that she was inactive during her time as Mary until CAM appeared. Mary had a whole month to get equipment to go after him and I think she has enough experience to get everything she needs without leaving traces. She is not a schoolboy who wants to try Daddy’s gun, she is a trained assassin, so I don’t think it would have been a big problem for her.

The other theory of cause is that she had been planted at John’s side and we are yet to get a good explanation for Mycroft’s lack of involvement, so I don’t think that one is entirely unlikely either. The interesting question would then be, by whom has she been planted? Mycroft himself (but why is Mary allowed to stay after she almost kills his baby brother)? Moriarty (makes sense with Mary’s reaction, but would CAM then really be a problem, yet alone one that would cause her to damage Moriarty’s favourite toy almost beyond repair)? The “real Moriarty” (remember he is “more than a man”)? Mary herself (but why would you go that close to Sherlock, extreme risk of being found out at some point, better to attach oneself to Molly or Mrs Hudson, close enough to gather information, but out of Sherlock’s eye line, or was someone trying to prove he/she is cleverer than Sherlock)? The next great villain?

 

The interesting thing is that John also seems to have a type. Which is not at all like Mary. Look at all the other women he has flirted with before - Anthea, Sarah, Jeanette, Louise Mortimer who are all dark or auburn. 

Sorry, but I really cannot imagine Mary taking up a job as a nurse in order to atone for her past deeds. There is not hint whatsoever that she did it for this reason. And btw, some people have pointed out the inexpert and hurtful way in which she bandages Billy's hand. Just saying. 

Last edited by SusiGo (July 17, 2015 10:11 am)

nakahara wrote:

Kittyhawk wrote:

Which either makes Sherlock the kind of friend which saves you from needing enemies, or he was convinced that Mary did not want to kill him. Or he had only a fraction of his brain power available and should have stayed in hospital...

Sorry, but in my opinion you contradict yourself in that first sentence. If Sherlock was so convinced that Mary does not want to kill him, then there was absolutely no reason for him to flee the hospital. ....

The only logical reason seems to be the fear for his life and for John´s safety - the fear of Mary. Or do you have some other explanation for this?
 

Actually no. But it works both ways round: You say Sherlock thinks Mary is dangerous and might kill him and John. And yet he puts John in the line of fire. Or doesn't stop John from putting himself in the line of fire. In my book that's not how friends behave.

And John's behaviour in the episode merits its own thread...

Last edited by Kittyhawk (July 17, 2015 11:12 am)

Kittyhawk wrote:

Actually no. But it works both ways round: You say Sherlock thinks Mary is dangerous and might kill him and John. And yet he puts John in the line of fire. Or doesn't stop John from putting himself in the line of fire. In my book that's not how friends behave.

And John's behaviour in the episode merits its own thread...

It is actually possible that Mary was the one in danger during her stay at Lenister Gardens. John is a perfect shot too and he goes armed into a dangerous situations....

Who knows what could´ve happened if Mary would indeed try to point a gun at him?
 

Interesting thoughts since yesterday. I like your detailed and thoughtful posts, @Lola, they give a lot to think.
BTW, I always figured scenes like Mary being a bit harsh towards people like Billy as a preliminary towards her general story and character development in HLV yet to come.
The question especially after Lola's detailed thoughts remains for me: how much room do we want for Mary's further story and development? What you describe, Lola, is interesting in itself, but is it still the Sherlock we love? Like Raven said, it would be a completely different show. I can of course only speak for myself, but I remember watching HLV for the first time and being frustrated and cringy to no end and thinking: Come on, leave center stage, I'm just not interested in you to that depth! Another season around Mary? Hm....Or the Watsons struggling to rescue their marriage and life as young family? Double hm... Let the boys rescue their friendship, they never truly did after TRF!

I can imagine Mary´s past being adapted as a kind of backstory for Sherlock´s case "Valley of Fear". It wouldn´t bother me that way if they included more Mary.

But a telenovella featuring Watsons and their ordinary family life, with Sherlock as a side-character.... no, thank you.