BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

nakahara · July 15, 2015 8:14 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
By the way, if Mary had wanted to kill Sherlock, she could have easily done it in Leinster Gardens. Of course, she would have shot John instead, but she didn't know that. I don't see how the projection of Mary's face on the façade would have been a problem - Mary could have found and disappeared the projector long before the police arrived. If the police would ever have arrived, given that Leinster Gardens was the least-known of Sherlock's hideouts.

If Sherlock seriously thought Mary had any intention of killing him, then having John sit at the end of this hallway is a gamble with John's life that beats the drugging in Baskerville and the Underground scene by a good length...

Mary is not a clairvoyant, you know. Why would she just randomly shoot at the barely visible silhouette at the end of some dark corridor, when she doesn´t know if this figure is really Sherlock? It was even implied in the dialogue she guessed that something is off with this shadowed figure almost immediately. The projector and her meeting with Billy told Mary that Sherlock is working with other people to get her there and to threaten her slightly... she could not know if this is not a trap set on her by Sherlock to caught her red-handed by the murder-attempt. It was within the realm of possibility that Lestrade and his men or Mycroft´s cronies would be hidden in the vicinity. It was already a high risk that she came there and said some damnable things into the phone produced by Sherlock... she would not be so stupid as to randomly start shooting around. That´s why she produced a pistol out of her bag only after some conversation with Sherlock and threatened him again only after he stepped out of his hiding place, showing hiself to her and after she guessed that they are alone there.

Last edited by nakahara (July 15, 2015 8:16 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · July 15, 2015 9:40 pm

nakahara wrote:
Kittyhawk wrote:
By the way, if Mary had wanted to kill Sherlock, she could have easily done it in Leinster Gardens. Of course, she would have shot John instead, but she didn't know that. I don't see how the projection of Mary's face on the façade would have been a problem - Mary could have found and disappeared the projector long before the police arrived. If the police would ever have arrived, given that Leinster Gardens was the least-known of Sherlock's hideouts.

If Sherlock seriously thought Mary had any intention of killing him, then having John sit at the end of this hallway is a gamble with John's life that beats the drugging in Baskerville and the Underground scene by a good length...
Mary is not a clairvoyant, you know. Why would she just randomly shoot at the barely visible silhouette at the end of some dark corridor, when she doesn´t know if this figure is really Sherlock? It was even implied in the dialogue she guessed that something is off with this shadowed figure almost immediately. The projector and her meeting with Billy told Mary that Sherlock is working with other people to get her there and to threaten her slightly... she could not know if this is not a trap set on her by Sherlock to caught her red-handed by the murder-attempt. It was within the realm of possibility that Lestrade and his men or Mycroft´s cronies would be hidden in the vicinity. It was already a high risk that she came there and said some damnable things into the phone produced by Sherlock... she would not be so stupid as to randomly start shooting around. That´s why she produced a pistol out of her bag only after some conversation with Sherlock and threatened him again only after he stepped out of his hiding place, showing hiself to her and after she guessed that they are alone there.

Plus, she was doing this without John's knowledge-- he had no idea that Mary was going to show up. I suspect she thought she was going to get away with murdering Sherlock, otherwise, why show up with a gun with a Silencer? Remeber, she thought she was being clever.

SusiGo · July 16, 2015 7:30 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I found myself wondering---and this is a serious question: do most people who have a very Pro-Mary stance have a dislike of Sherlock to begin with? I really am just curious. I'd love to have honest answers on this...

I also wonder about people's feelings about John? Don't we care that he's married to a woman he doesn't even know? You want to talk about betrayal-- why is this okay? Even if you don't like Sherlock, what about John and his feelings, his pain? Doesn't he matter at all? Or, is Mary's dream of the suburbian house, husband and baby the only thing that's important? YIKES.

Since no one seems to have answered your question so far - of course I can only speak for myself. I am not sure if people liking Mary very much have a dislike of Sherlock but I think that people who regard Sherlock and John as the core of the show may feel more critical towards her. My point, however, is not so much the changed dynamic (this would be a different thing to discuss) but the fact that she hurts both Sherlock and John very much and is apparently forgiven without showing any signs of repentance.

And it is very good that you mention John in this context - we often concentrate on Sherlock because he is being shot by her but John is the one who is getting the rug pulled out under his feet. It is his wife, his marriage, his future that has been built on a lie, not Sherlock's. We know how much he suffered not just from watching Sherlock "die" but also from the fact that Sherlock did not confide in him. He felt he was not worthy of Sherlock's confidence and trust and now the same thing happens all over again with his wife. The difference, however, is that Sherlock never lied to him about his identity. Sherlock told him from the very being who he was, what he did, and what he thought were his main character flaws. Other than Mary.

And this is what makes it so difficult for me to accept Mary being forgiven. There is not reason to forgive her. She has done nothing to earn their trust.

Last edited by SusiGo (July 16, 2015 7:31 am)

NatureNoHumansNo · July 16, 2015 10:48 am

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
I found myself wondering---and this is a serious question: do most people who have a very Pro-Mary stance have a dislike of Sherlock to begin with? I really am just curious. I'd love to have honest answers on this...

I also wonder about people's feelings about John? Don't we care that he's married to a woman he doesn't even know? You want to talk about betrayal-- why is this okay? Even if you don't like Sherlock, what about John and his feelings, his pain? Doesn't he matter at all? Or, is Mary's dream of the suburbian house, husband and baby the only thing that's important? YIKES.

I'd say that not disliking Mary is a not matter of liking or disliking Sherlock or John. It's IMO, accepting the show as it is so far.
Mary is a balanced character in the show, she has not, so far, been shown as a villain even if she has dark sides. But, as far as we know ( i.e: at the end of His last vow), she loves Watson and Watson loves her, they are rebuilding a marriage after a major crisis. And Holmes acknowledged she missed her kill-shot on purpose and called the ambulance to save his life.
Maybe there will be twists in S4, and things will be revealed that wil change everything... but that's the point we're at right now.
Every like and dislike I hear about her are based on assumptions ( which is not a bad thing, but assumptions can be made in different directions), or on moral judgement and I don't feel comfortable with viewers who set themselves as judges of a fictionnal character.

SusiGo · July 16, 2015 11:29 am

She gave the flash drive to them only after John had learned from Sherlock about her past and that it was her who shot him. Before this she made no attempt whatsoever to tell him the truth, quite the contrary. Presenting information only after you have been driven into a corner is not the same thing as being honest of your own volition.

As for Sarah - she is a wonderful character IMO. I would never dare to criticise her. And she even managed to gain Sherlock's respect without resorting to violence.

Kittyhawk · July 16, 2015 2:07 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Kittyhawk wrote:
...

If Sherlock seriously thought Mary had any intention of killing him, then having John sit at the end of this hallway is a gamble with John's life that beats the drugging in Baskerville and the Underground scene by a good length...
Mary is not a clairvoyant, you know. Why would she just randomly shoot at the barely visible silhouette at the end of some dark corridor, when she doesn´t know if this figure is really Sherlock? It was even implied in the dialogue she guessed that something is off with this shadowed figure almost immediately. The projector and her meeting with Billy told Mary that Sherlock is working with other people to get her there and to threaten her slightly... she could not know if this is not a trap set on her by Sherlock to caught her red-handed by the murder-attempt. It was within the realm of possibility that Lestrade and his men or Mycroft´s cronies would be hidden in the vicinity. It was already a high risk that she came there and said some damnable things into the phone produced by Sherlock... she would not be so stupid as to randomly start shooting around. That´s why she produced a pistol out of her bag only after some conversation with Sherlock and threatened him again only after he stepped out of his hiding place, showing hiself to her and after she guessed that they are alone there.

Plus, she was doing this without John's knowledge-- he had no idea that Mary was going to show up. I suspect she thought she was going to get away with murdering Sherlock, otherwise, why show up with a gun with a Silencer? Remeber, she thought she was being clever.

Exactly, Mary does not know that it's John sitting in the wheelchair. It would be logical to assume it to be Sherlock. There is no indication in the dialogue that she has any doubts about it - she only realizes her error when Sherlock shows up behind her (which, incidentally, is not all that logical: Sherlock is so close that Mary should have heard him talking into his phone behind her). In my opinion she could have easily killed John thinking he was Sherlock.

Which is why I think that putting John in this position - wheelchair at the end of the hallway - was not a good idea. John would also have learned about his wife's skills by hiding behind the wheelchair in which Sherlock was sitting (for example - I'm sure they could have come up with other ways). So I repeat: If Sherlock thought Mary had any intention of killing him he was gambling with John's life by using him as bait to draw her into the building. Which either makes Sherlock the kind of friend which saves you from needing enemies, or he was convinced that Mary did not want to kill him. Or he had only a fraction of his brain power available and should have stayed in hospital...

(OT: I used to like Sherlock very much - all the way through the first four and a half episodes. I only began to have doubts in Baskerville. Which were reinforced in TEH ("What life?" and Underground scene) and not exactly dispelled by the Best Man speech. And when I look at John's behaviour in HLV I'm beginning to seriously think he'd be better off without Sherlock - with or without Mary. So far I like Mary because she is a multi-faceted character with good and bad sides which makes her a lot more interesting than if she were only the nice nurse who marries John.)

SusiGo · July 16, 2015 2:10 pm

I think this would be the first Conan Doyle adaptation ever in which Watson would be better of without Holmes. A real first.

mrshouse · July 16, 2015 2:35 pm

Indeed. And an interesting take to maybe quit fandom because you don't like the personal development of a main character. But that's performing arts, I guess. And maybe the same as with the fans who might not stick around if Mary stays.

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 4:55 pm

Here's the problem with "defending" a female charcater at all costs--just because she's female: Mary (at least to me) is not a female role model.

She lies and kills and fakes freindships to get a suburban life, baby and husband. Is that really what Mofftiss thinks of most women? Seriously?

However, I loved Felicity Smoak from Arrow-- I ADORE Lagertha from Vikings. There are lots and lots of great female characters out there-- and they actually have integrity! (And backstories!) It's not impossible.

But Mary? She's actually (IMO) rather short-sightedly developed as a character. And, well-- it's the jaundiced idea that women are like men without accountability or logic-- and that's basically how she's written, in my view.

On Sherlock, women are often more stereotype/hollywood trope than actual characters. Mary is no exception-- she just happens to be a mishmash of several of those tropes, and it makes her intriguing-- but without something there to make me empathize with her-- (like showing remorse, having a more compelling reason to shoot Sherlock than just wanting to keep lying to her husband) well-- it makes me unable to "forgive" her. There's certainly not anything in her character as shown that makes me receptive to her as a "Third Lead Character".

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 5:00 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I think this would be the first Conan Doyle adaptation ever in which Watson would be better of without Holmes. A real first.

Oh, I think it would totally suck-- but I think that's some folk's opinion-- they really want the "John and Mary" show! Or maybe just, "Mary", with John and baby as side character. I'm actually writing a fic along those lines-- sadly, it doesn't turn out well for Mary and John. (And Sherlock has to rescue John in the end...)

Anyhoo, I am impressed with the honest reactions to my question-- I had wondered...

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 5:01 pm

SusiGo wrote:
She gave the flash drive to them only after John had learned from Sherlock about her past and that it was her who shot him. Before this she made no attempt whatsoever to tell him the truth, quite the contrary. Presenting information only after you have been driven into a corner is not the same thing as being honest of your own volition.

As for Sarah - she is a wonderful character IMO. I would never dare to criticise her. And she even managed to gain Sherlock's respect without resorting to violence.

Agreed, 100%.

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 5:08 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
nakahara wrote:
Mary is not a clairvoyant, you know. Why would she just randomly shoot at the barely visible silhouette at the end of some dark corridor, when she doesn´t know if this figure is really Sherlock? It was even implied in the dialogue she guessed that something is off with this shadowed figure almost immediately. The projector and her meeting with Billy told Mary that Sherlock is working with other people to get her there and to threaten her slightly... she could not know if this is not a trap set on her by Sherlock to caught her red-handed by the murder-attempt. It was within the realm of possibility that Lestrade and his men or Mycroft´s cronies would be hidden in the vicinity. It was already a high risk that she came there and said some damnable things into the phone produced by Sherlock... she would not be so stupid as to randomly start shooting around. That´s why she produced a pistol out of her bag only after some conversation with Sherlock and threatened him again only after he stepped out of his hiding place, showing hiself to her and after she guessed that they are alone there.

Plus, she was doing this without John's knowledge-- he had no idea that Mary was going to show up. I suspect she thought she was going to get away with murdering Sherlock, otherwise, why show up with a gun with a Silencer? Remeber, she thought she was being clever.
Exactly, Mary does not know that it's John sitting in the wheelchair. It would be logical to assume it to be Sherlock. There is no indication in the dialogue that she has any doubts about it - she only realizes her error when Sherlock shows up behind her (which, incidentally, is not all that logical: Sherlock is so close that Mary should have heard him talking into his phone behind her). In my opinion she could have easily killed John thinking he was Sherlock.

Which is why I think that putting John in this position - wheelchair at the end of the hallway - was not a good idea. John would also have learned about his wife's skills by hiding behind the wheelchair in which Sherlock was sitting (for example - I'm sure they could have come up with other ways). So I repeat: If Sherlock thought Mary had any intention of killing him he was gambling with John's life by using him as bait to draw her into the building. Which either makes Sherlock the kind of friend which saves you from needing enemies, or he was convinced that Mary did not want to kill him. Or he had only a fraction of his brain power available and should have stayed in hospital...

(OT: I used to like Sherlock very much - all the way through the first four and a half episodes. I only began to have doubts in Baskerville. Which were reinforced in TEH ("What life?" and Underground scene) and not exactly dispelled by the Best Man speech. And when I look at John's behaviour in HLV I'm beginning to seriously think he'd be better off without Sherlock - with or without Mary. So far I like Mary because she is a multi-faceted character with good and bad sides which makes her a lot more interesting than if she were only the nice nurse who marries John.)

The entire scenario would never have happened if Mary hadn't shot Sherlock in the first place! If Mary had been honest with John about her past, from the begining!

This is not Sherlock's fault, and this is blaming the victim. And this is what I'm talking about: doing mental gymnastics to always, always somehow make this Sherlock's fault, while not ever holding Mary accountable for her actions.

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (July 16, 2015 5:11 pm)

Liberty · July 16, 2015 5:44 pm

I'm not really convinced that Mary really did lie because she wanted a suburban life and a baby. I think there were two main drivers for her - one of them was love for John (i.e. she wanted him, rather than the suburban lifestyle). The other one I'm not sure about - it was whatever made her hide her identity in the first place. It's most likely to be keep herself safe, I think, but there could be other things involved (like her working undercover perhaps, or protecting other people). I think the lifestyle and the baby were incidental rather than planned (they look surprised to find out about the pregnancy). And neither of them are really "suburban" people. Mary is equally as keen to rush out on adventure as John is at the beginning of HLV. I think that perhaps she accepts suburban mundanity because of John, rather than using John to achieve it.

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 6:21 pm

Swanpride wrote:
I am not opposed to calling badly female characters out. But I also think that it is wrong to have only characters like Buffy or Lagherta (and yes, Lagherta is all kinds of awesome, she is the sole reason I'll stick around for the next season of Vikings even though I HATED the third) on screen. We also need the Molly's and the Mrs. Hudson's. And we need to allow female characters to have flaws and do questionable things. Mary is for me an interesting character the same way Black Widow is interesting. Or, to pick a male example, Neal Caffrey is interesting. Or even Sherlock. Deeply flawed but in a way I still can relate to her. I don't need her to be perfect. I only need to believe in her love for John, and that she honestly want to leave her past behind her and start new.

So, serious question: What trumps all of Mary's previous behavior for you-- including shooting Sherlock-- is her love for John? Serious question#2: Does dishonesty matter here? (Hiding her past from John to save the relationship) or , for you-- does love trump all? And, again-- do John's feelings of betrayal and hurt matter, or is it assumed that the love of Mary will sort of automatically fix it in the end?

nakahara · July 16, 2015 6:49 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
Exactly, Mary does not know that it's John sitting in the wheelchair. It would be logical to assume it to be Sherlock. There is no indication in the dialogue that she has any doubts about it - she only realizes her error when Sherlock shows up behind her (which, incidentally, is not all that logical: Sherlock is so close that Mary should have heard him talking into his phone behind her). In my opinion she could have easily killed John thinking he was Sherlock.

Mary says in the scene, after Sherlock revealed himself to her: "It´s a dummy. I suppose it was a fairly obvious trick:" Well, if it´s a fairly obvious trick according to her, then she had to have her doubts about the shadowy figure really being Sherlock.

Plus, I already explained why it was not very probable that Mary starts shooting in a place of their meeting, that was entirely set up by Sherlock. It could be a trap.

Kittyhawk wrote:
Which is why I think that putting John in this position - wheelchair at the end of the hallway - was not a good idea. John would also have learned about his wife's skills by hiding behind the wheelchair in which Sherlock was sitting (for example - I'm sure they could have come up with other ways). So I repeat: If Sherlock thought Mary had any intention of killing him he was gambling with John's life by using him as bait to draw her into the building.

We never saw a scene in which Sherlock places John into the wheelchair. It is equally possible that John insisted to sit there, only to see his wife´s betrayal "from the front row". John is not a helpless sheep, a former soldier was certainly aware of the danger that Mary posed to him in such situation. He did it anyway - he craves danger in the same way as Sherlock does. Plus, when he deduced that it was Mary who actually shot Sherlock, he might take his place out of feeling of guilt.

It is really not neccesary to always see Sherlock as a bad guy of this story. If we always presume best about Mary, we could be equally graceful to Sherlock and also presume the best about him, if we have no proof to the contrary.

Kittyhawk wrote:
Which either makes Sherlock the kind of friend which saves you from needing enemies, or he was convinced that Mary did not want to kill him. Or he had only a fraction of his brain power available and should have stayed in hospital...

Sorry, but in my opinion you contradict yourself in that first sentence. If Sherlock was so convinced that Mary does not want to kill him, then there was absolutely no reason for him to flee the hospital. He could speak to the kindhearted Mary, who saved his life, anytime in the comfort of his own bed. And yet he didn´t remain there, but fled and did himself more harm, almost bled to death... why?

The only logical reason seems to be the fear for his life and for John´s safety - the fear of Mary. Or do you have some other explanation for this?

SusiGo · July 16, 2015 7:02 pm

Yes to all this, nakahara.

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 7:13 pm

nakahara wrote:
We never saw a scene in which Sherlock places John into the wheelchair. It is equally possible that John insisted to sit there, only to see his wife´s betrayal "from the front row". John is not a helpless sheep, a former soldier was certainly aware of the danger that Mary posed to him in such situation. He did it anyway - he craves danger in the same way as Sherlock does. Plus, when he deduced that it was Mary who actually shot Sherlock, he might take his place out of feeling of guilt.

It is really not neccesary to always see Sherlock as a bad guy of this story. If we always presume best about Mary, we could be equally graceful to Sherlock and also presume the best about him, if we have no proof to the contrary.

Kittyhawk wrote:
Which either makes Sherlock the kind of friend which saves you from needing enemies, or he was convinced that Mary did not want to kill him. Or he had only a fraction of his brain power available and should have stayed in hospital...
Sorry, but in my opinion you contradict yourself in that first sentence. If Sherlock was so convinced that Mary does not want to kill him, then there was absolutely no reason for him to flee the hospital. He could speak to the kindhearted Mary, who saved his life, anytime in the comfort of his own bed. And yet he didn´t remain there, but fled and did himself more harm, almost bled to death... why?

The only logical reason seems to be the fear for his life and for John´s safety - the fear of Mary. Or do you have some other explanation for this?

!!!!!

AMEN!

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (July 16, 2015 7:14 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 7:40 pm

You know-- something SusiGo said earlier is kinda making me think here: that maybe it's about the dynamic-- we have been led to beleive that the show is about Sherlock and John-- but with the addition of Mary, well-- now it's all about her. She's essentially become the Third Lead character-- and we haven't really gotten (and I'm going by what I watched on the show) anything to really grab onto that puts her in the category of "The Good Guys." I can see Swanpride's point about Mary's actions not being excusable, but being understandable-- and I think for some of us that's enough, and for some of us it isn't.

I think what may really be getting my goat is the change in the dynamic between Sherlock and John! So it leaves me with this feeling of trepidation; if, as current promos would lead one to believe, Mary *is* going to feature prominently in the show-- well, isn't this a completely new show???? I just don't even...

The problem for me is that Mary gets away with all that she has done, with absolutely no repercussions.

mrshouse · July 16, 2015 7:45 pm

Thank you very much, Raven, this is what I feel from the bottom of my heart. The dynamics. Not what I fell in love with. And NO Johnlock intended here.

Last edited by mrshouse (July 16, 2015 7:45 pm)

RavenMorganLeigh · July 16, 2015 7:49 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Thank you very much, Raven, this is what I feel from the bottom of my heart. The dynamics. Not what I fell in love with. And NO Johnlock intended here.

Absolutley! Johnlock doesn't have to be a part of the equation at all! It's about the original team: Holmes and Watson.