SusiGo wrote:

I am not sure if this is where Moffat finds his inspiration ... if anything I would look at his other work which is why I started a Moffat's women thread. 

 
Agreed. Plus, we forget that Mary' didn't want John to look at the memory stick with her present, because, "you won't love me anymore,when you've finished." John is ex-military, he's used to Mycroft and his clandestine spy stuff, he would've understood -- unless Mary did something unforgivable. Like , for instance, being one of Moriarty's snipers.

Also, I know some want to shove Magnusson's comments about Mary under the rug, but the fact is, Mary was threatened enough by him that she felt the need to go after him. If her past was only problematic, why not just talk to John? He would have helped her. If Mary didn't trust John, why marry him?

So has she been forced to shoot Sherlock, too?
No, this is.....   If she is trying to change, she is not very good at it.....

Honestly-- (and this may just be *my* thing) I have a problem with the idea that being in love excuses Mary's behavior. 

This kind of thinking is what a lot of women have fought against-- the idea that we're incapable of logic and reason, that we can't be accountable for anything when love, pregancy hormones, or just our whims-- are involved. If they take that tack with Mary, I'll be very disappointed; it would mean putting her character into an old  1950's stereotype, and it would completely undermine any power she has as a character. 

And that's a problem. Suddenly, a dynamic, powerful female character (and she is-- whether you like her or not) becomes weak, unreliable, incapable of self-control, incapable of making her own choices and standing by them...is that what we really want?

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (July 9, 2015 5:58 pm)

Kittyhawk wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

....

With the info that we are given about Mary, is there any reason to think of her as Heroic? 
....

 

Maybe not heroic, but it's definitely very brave (or suicidal) to ride pillion behind a guy whom you don't know (and vice versa). Besides, "There are no heroes!" - so why should Mary be one?

Actually, I've done that. Nice guy, riding a Triumph. Fun ride! The second time I did it, I got engaged to the guy-- he gave me a ride home from work on his Honda Shadow. 
 

I don't think I'm understanding ... Mary refrained from shooting Magnussen because she loved John? 
Then, why on earth did she shoot Sherlock? I don't get it. 

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I don't think I'm understanding ... Mary refrained from shooting Magnussen because she loved John? 
Then, why on earth did she shoot Sherlock? I don't get it. 

Again, it was partly because of John - she said later that if John found out it would break him and she would lose him and she would do anything to avoid that.  Shooting Sherlock was part of avoiding that, wasn't it?  (And leaving Magnussen alive was necessary so that John wasn't a suspect - it's not the most compelling of reasons, but it's the one we're given).

Now I know people say that she must have believed that Sherlock being shot (and taking the risk of him being killed) would break John more than losing his wife and child.   But actually, I think it's quite possible that she doesn't think that.   She did see John deeply affected by Sherlock's "death", but also saw him falling in love with her during this time, so she has a rather skewed view.  I think she believes that the version of Mary that he's fallen for really is good for him.   And also, love can sometimes have possessive, selfish elements: shooting Sherlock was a way of holding on to John as well as a way of trying to prevent him being broken.   At least, I think that's the picture we're being shown (subject to change according to whatever is revealed in S4, of course!). 

So I don't think we're being shown that Mary in particular or women in general are weak, lacking self-control, etc., when in love.  Love might change the motivation and the decisions, but Mary's actions do seem to be kind of rational, given what she knows and believes, and her background. 
 

Last edited by Liberty (July 9, 2015 9:14 pm)

Liberty wrote:

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:

I don't think I'm understanding ... Mary refrained from shooting Magnussen because she loved John? 
Then, why on earth did she shoot Sherlock? I don't get it. 

Again, it was partly because of John - she said later that if John found out it would break him and she would lose him and she would do anything to avoid that.  Shooting Sherlock was part of avoiding that, wasn't it?  (And leaving Magnussen alive was necessary so that John wasn't a suspect - it's not the most compelling of reasons, but it's the one we're given).

Now I know people say that she must have believed that Sherlock being shot (and taking the risk of him being killed) would break John more than losing his wife and child.   But actually, I think it's quite possible that she doesn't think that.   She did see John deeply affected by Sherlock's "death", but also saw him falling in love with her during this time, so she has a rather skewed view.  I think she believes that the version of Mary that he's fallen for her really is good for him.   And also, love can sometimes have possessive, selfish elements: shooting Sherlock was a way of holding on to John as well as a way of trying to prevent him being broken.   At least, I think that's the picture we're being shown (subject to change according to whatever is revealed in S4, of course!). 

So I don't think we're being shown that Mary in particular or women in general are weak, lacking self-control, etc., when in love.  Love might change the motivation and the decisions, but Mary's actions do seem to be kind of rational, given what she knows and believes, and her background. 
 

You know-- that explanation actually makes me like Mary even less-- because she treated Sherlock as a friend, let him plan her wedding--and all the time she thought of him as disposable. It means that the concept of loyalty is foreign to her, if it interferes with what she wants. And. apparently-- what she wants is more important to her than anyone else's needs, wishes, -- and that include's John's. I doubt John would agree with Mary's stance on shooting Sherlock. 

I feel sorry for John. He's not a prize, nor is he a toy to be fought over, yet his needs, his wishes don't matter. All that matters is what Mary wants. That kind of obessive love is characteristic of stalkers and other abusive people-- so, now I think I'm a little creeped out!   I need Ice Cream!

Well, she did.

"Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear........"

Are we saying that hero means "shiny white"? Sherlock is definitely a hero-- though he woudln't call himself such, and is quite grey...

I think, here-- intent matters. It's one thing to kill to save someone's life. It's another to do it because you want to save your relationship.

Swanpride wrote:

Yeah, but Mary's intent wasn't to kill, it was to delay Sherlock long enough that she could talk to him later on. And if she intended to kill Magnussen...well, if she had done it, Sherlock wouldn't be forced to do it.

Rephrase: it's one thing to Grieviously Wound someone Nearly to Death to save another's life; it's another to Grieviously Wound someone Nearly to Death in order to delay them so you can talk to them about not telling that person's best friend (and your husband)  that you lied to them since the day you met them, that you were an ex-asassin with people chasing after you that could "burn your whole life down"-- along with your husband and child's. 

Saying Mary didn't mean to kill Sherlock doesn't actually make it better.   :-(