BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Mattlocked · June 19, 2015 9:29 pm

Kittyhawk wrote:
.....

Or she might be developed into somebody really evil - so far we only have CAM's word for it that she ever was (and who is he to talk? I don't think I want to take CAM's word for anything). ....

CAM might be/have been a villain, but he really knew a lot. It was all in his head. All the information about people. Think about all the texts on screen.
I have to think hard now, but I think he was always (?) right?
So when he talks about the bad girl Mary.... well.....

Harriet · June 19, 2015 9:30 pm

And CAM never lied, as far as we know.

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 9:31 pm

When CAM talks about Mary being a "bad girl", he is deliberately goading John. From a man who's a petty sadist but calls himself "just a businessman", I wouldn't take any moral advise myself.

SusiGo · June 19, 2015 9:31 pm

True. And if Sherlock had been wrong about her past, she might have said so.

SusiGo · June 19, 2015 9:33 pm

Vhanja wrote:
When CAM talks about Mary being a "bad girl", he is deliberately goading John. From a man who's a petty sadist but calls himself "just a businessman", I wouldn't take any moral advise myself.

He talks about Mary being a bad girl to himself, while "reading" her file. It immediately follows the scene with Mary threatening Sherlock in his hospital room.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 19, 2015 9:35 pm)

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 9:36 pm

He is still not the kind of man that I would take any moral advise from.

Harriet · June 19, 2015 9:40 pm

It's not about advice. Plus, he is experienced recognising baddies.

Mattlocked · June 19, 2015 9:42 pm

No moral advice. But he likes her being bad. I'm sure he's telling the truth. In both ways. She's bad. And he likes it.

He also is goading Sherlock when talking about him pulling John out of the bonfire and showing the video. "Damsel in distress."
And still: IMO he's telling the truth there, too.

Last edited by Mattlocked (June 19, 2015 9:43 pm)

SusiGo · June 19, 2015 9:43 pm

Very well said, Mattlocked and Harriet. I fully agree.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 19, 2015 9:43 pm)

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 9:45 pm

I find Mary to be much more complex than being a "baddie". Just as I find Sherlock to be more complex than just being a "hero".

Mattlocked · June 19, 2015 9:47 pm

Sherlock isn't a hero.

Harriet · June 19, 2015 9:52 pm

I don't care - Magnussen can recognise criminals when he sees them, better now?

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 9:55 pm

I don't trust Magnussen's judgement of other people, because his own moral compass is so askew it makes Sherlock look like a priest.

Last edited by Vhanja (June 19, 2015 9:55 pm)

SusiGo · June 19, 2015 9:56 pm

Sorry, but could you explain that?

Harriet · June 19, 2015 9:57 pm

So you would say that criminals can't tell the truth nor can they recognise other criminals?

Last edited by Harriet (June 19, 2015 9:58 pm)

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 10:01 pm

Magnussen is a sadist. If there ever were a psycopath/sosiopath in the show, he would fit the bill (and probably also Moriarty). But where Moriarty seem to be very self-aware of who he is and what he does, Magnussen seem to lack that introspective view. He loves to play these petty sadistic power games on other people, he loves (almost implied to be sexual) his power over other people.

Yet where Moriarity says outloud that he is a villain to Sherlock's hero-ness, Magnussen trivializes his sadistic power streak to being a "businessman requiring assets". He seem to have very little understanding of himself and what he does.

Also, he clearly goads both Sherlock and John (again showing his sadistic side), probably exaggerating to get the reaction he wants for his power trip.

So, no, I would not trust his moral judgement of any character, seeing as he seem to lack any kind of understanding of himself and what he does. He is the superficial, unaware and unreflective psycopath, whereas Moriarty is the aware and reflective one.

In my view.

Harriet · June 19, 2015 10:03 pm

You made your point, without answering any of our questions

Btw, sociopaths usually have a very good understanding of people who are similar to them.

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 10:06 pm

Ok, give your questions again, and I will answer them.

Mattlocked · June 19, 2015 10:07 pm

CAM knows exactly how to play people. What he has to do or say to have power over them. He remembers everything just in his head. He must be extraordinary intelligent.
I don't want to believe that he has a very little understanding of himself and what he does.

Vhanja · June 19, 2015 10:08 pm

You can be highly intelligent without having too much self-awareness.