BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 8:58 am

Yes, this is what I feel, too, and what really annoys me about Mary. And makes me think she is no goodie in the long run.

Someone put it a bit more wordy and bitter but there is a lot of truth to it:

http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/121743801937/oh-are-we-doing-conversation-today-it-really-is

Last edited by SusiGo (June 17, 2015 9:07 am)

Sherlock Holmes · June 17, 2015 9:25 am

SusiGo wrote:
Yes, this is what I feel, too, and what really annoys me about Mary. And makes me think she is no goodie in the long run.

Someone put it a bit more wordy and bitter but there is a lot of truth to it:

http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/121743801937/oh-are-we-doing-conversation-today-it-really-is

That made me cheer. I reblogged it.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 9:28 am

Well done, Boss.

SolarSystem · June 17, 2015 9:29 am

No matter how often I watch HLV, Mary's "Oh, are we doing conversation today?" will always sound so like talking down to John. As if he were a little child, as if he'd just been huffish for no reason at all. And that's the worst thing about this: It doesn't feel to me at all as if she even understood, not even after months of silence, what she has done wrong.

Last edited by SolarSystem (June 17, 2015 9:31 am)

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 9:30 am

Same with me. And to me it reflects her behaviour towards Sherlock in TSoT. "Sherlock, you're fibbing." Mother talking to stupid little boy.

Sherlock Holmes · June 17, 2015 10:42 am

SusiGo wrote:
Same with me. And to me it reflects her behaviour towards Sherlock in TSoT. "Sherlock, you're fibbing." Mother talking to stupid little boy.

"I can tell when you're fibbing Sherlock, I'm not John."
Feels like, "John's an idiot, I'm much more intelligent."

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 10:45 am

Yes, she manages to belittle both of them in one sentence.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 12:01 pm

I think we are back to what filter we watch the characters through. When you dislike a character, it's much easier to view and interpret what they do and say in a more negative light. And the other way around - when you really like a character, it's easier to be positive and have good explanations for anything they do that might be critic-worthy. It's human nature.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 12:27 pm

True. But the funny thing is that many people did like Mary until HLV. And then they could not forgive her anyway.

Harriet · June 17, 2015 12:32 pm

I mean, I can see that with lots of goodwill and big efforts one can find reasons and excuses for more or less anything

Last edited by Harriet (June 17, 2015 12:33 pm)

Schmiezi · June 17, 2015 12:39 pm

SusiGo wrote:
True. But the funny thing is that many people did like Mary until HLV. And then they could not forgive her anyway.

Me, for example.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 12:42 pm

In my case it came gradually. When I watched TEH for the first time, I found her quite nice. In TSoT less so, she sometimes seemed like a disturbing factor to me. After HLV there was no way back to liking her.

lil · June 17, 2015 12:56 pm

I think theres quite a difference between liking her character , in the way people like Dexter or Hannible, than to being supportive or approving of her actions.She did bad things in the past and she did bad things in HLV so it's reasonable to think of her as a baddie that may do more bad things.The idea does not come from fantasy it comes from the writing.

At the end of HLV , if we are supposed to think everything is forgiven and back to a similar attitude with Mary as previously , then everything revealed about Mary seems sensationalist and pointless or as people have accused just for dramatic effect. For the sake of good writing at least there should be some reason behind it all that has an effect on the whole of the story they are telling.

SolarSystem · June 17, 2015 1:16 pm

Where can I sign this, lil?
Absolutely, are we really to believe that the Watsons will just go back to the life they've had before HLV, have their baby and live happily every after? Then the whole of HLV would have been pointless. (Okay, maybe not all of it, in terms of Sherlock and what he was willing to do in order to protect John, we've indeed learned one thing or another.)

Last edited by SolarSystem (June 17, 2015 1:17 pm)

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 1:22 pm

Who said anything about living happily ever after? Didn't Martin himself confirm that will never happen?

This debate isn't black or white for me. It's not about either finding Mary to be a horrible person who is an evil villan that doesn't deserve any redemption, or she is an innocent lily that will live happily ever after with John. None of those scenarios are even close to my view of her and the show. Sherlock as a show is, thankfully, way above such simple views.

Last edited by Vhanja (June 17, 2015 1:23 pm)

SolarSystem · June 17, 2015 1:44 pm

Vhanja wrote:
None of those scenarios are even close to my view of her and the show. Sherlock as a show is, thankfully, way above such simple views.

Since this was an answer to my previous post, I'll just take that as a compliment. *irony off*
I'm not entirely sure how you meant what you just wrote, but I certainly know how it can be read.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 1:48 pm

It was a comment to several posts, because it seems that those who do not judge Mary too harshly are believed to view her as an innocent lily and think her and John will live happily ever after. Which is very far from how I view any of this.

It's the same with Sherlock himself. Either he is excused for just about anything he does, or those who are critical to some of the stuff he says or does, are believed to think that he is a horrible, childish person who needs to suffer for all eterntiy for the fall.

I miss the middle ground.

Last edited by Vhanja (June 17, 2015 1:49 pm)

Harriet · June 17, 2015 1:57 pm

I think you are exaggerating.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 1:59 pm

Maybe, but that's how it feels sometimes. Maybe because I am often in the minority in these discussions, which can sometimes become a bit overwhelming.

Harriet · June 17, 2015 2:02 pm

It could be that exaggerating makes such things worse instead of better.