BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:30 am

SusiGo wrote:
So you think Sherlock would regard someone who has killed numerous people and married his best friend under false pretences and as good as killed himself not as a baddie? Sorry, but I cannot believe that for the life of me.

Do you think Sherlock would plead for John to trust Moriarty? To give Moriarty a hug and tell him to look after John for him? The difference is vast.

And, yes, I believe he did just that. That is what I see in the show.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:33 am

I think the difference is that we see Moriarty pulling off his bad deeds in the show, whereas we never see Mary's past on screen. But anyway there is enough bad she does in HLV that she cannot be considered an innocent lilly.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:35 am

There are very few people in this show that I would consider an innocent lilly, least of all Sherlock and John. And Mary.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:38 am

True. And none of them except mary puts on a pretty face for disguise, is bad and then let into the circle of trust again. Inconsistent.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:40 am

I wouldn't call it inconsistent, because no one else have done what Mary did. She is a very special case. There might be a big conspiracy between Sherlock and John going on behind the scenes, but I see nothing that points to that in the show.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:48 am

Vhanja wrote:
I wouldn't call it inconsistent, because no one else have done what Mary did. She is a very special case.

Hm, it's probably me, but I don't really get what you mean by that. It is true that this way has never been gone with the character of Mary Morstan but how does that rule out that her characterization/ her path/ her kharma whatever is written inconsistent, at least her developement in HLV? We discussed already that lots of fans who have problems withMary have so because they feel they have too little to make her a good person the writers want us to see in her.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:51 am

I thought you meant inconsistent in that other characters had done something similar and had not been forgiven.

Yeah, there is a lot of different opinions on Mary. I have seen plenty that makes it easy for me to like her as a person. She is greatly flawed, but so is Sherlock and John as well. As I've said before: Flawed and grey character are much more interesting to me than a white knight in shining armour. That's "dull, boring, predictable".

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:54 am

No, I meant I see lot of holes in her story in HLV. Holes that make me cringe at the christmas scene and that make me cringe at the tarmac scene, I felt physical pain.
I agree about grey characters though! There are a lot of baddies I love to pieces! But I never felt forced by writers to see them as good.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 7:56 am

Yes, mrshouse, exactly. But there are a lot of details that can be taken as hints that we are not meant to see her as a good person. The horns in TSoT, the triumphant red coat on the tarmac, the wonderful meta about Mary being presented as a film noir femme fatale ...

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:57 am

I never felt forced by the writeres to see her as good. I am not sure if the labels "good" or "bad" can be applied easily to her and several others on the show, the characters are too complex and too grey for that sometimes.

SolarSystem · June 17, 2015 7:59 am

But "flawed and grey" doesn't necessarily mean that they are all flawed and grey in the exact same way. There still are differences, and the biggest difference for me is that neither Sherlock nor John would ever shoot at the best friend of their husband/wife.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 8:01 am

Yes. What about "character that deserves forgiveness"? Which for me she is not either. No redemption without regret. And Mary not once shows regret or begs forgiveness. Other than Sherlock.

Why should I forgive a selfish character who even tries to justify her deeds? Who never once is seen saying sorry to her own husband? Or the man she nearly killed?

Last edited by SusiGo (June 17, 2015 8:02 am)

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 8:03 am

In real life I doubt a lot of people would be able to forgive her as quickly as Sherlock does. Then again, there is a lot of stuff that happens in this series that is not according to real life. It's a show about a man who is very far from everything normal, and he doesn't play by our moral rules and standards. So I am willing to suspend disbelief for this just as I am for other stuff that wouldn't happen in real life as it does in the show.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 8:06 am

Yes, I see your point and I would go as far as to say that this difference between real life and show already occured in the earlier series.
But again: also within a fictional universe a characterization should be -at least for the broader adience- consistent in itself and believable. I don't have numbers but I somehow have a feeling it didn't really reach the wider audience. So in comparison with the first two series there was something..... not so good.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 8:18 am

Leaving the audience reaction for a moment - Sherlock has never been shown as someone who encourages criminal behaviour or personal betrayal. He was appalled at Mr Windibank posing as his stepdaughter's boyfriend which is terrible but does not compare with killing people. He does have a moral compass even if it is different than other people's.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 8:20 am

Good point.

Sherlock Holmes · June 17, 2015 8:40 am

Vhanja wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
So you think Sherlock would regard someone who has killed numerous people and married his best friend under false pretences and as good as killed himself not as a baddie? Sorry, but I cannot believe that for the life of me.
Do you think Sherlock would plead for John to trust Moriarty? To give Moriarty a hug and tell him to look after John for him? The difference is vast.

And, yes, I believe he did just that. That is what I see in the show.

If John had started dating Moriarty when they believed he was "Jim from IT", had fallen majorly in love with him, had gotten married to him, was living with him....then yes, I think Sherlock would encourage him to do all that, simply for his own safety until they could figure a feasable way out.

Sherlock Holmes · June 17, 2015 8:43 am

Vhanja wrote:
I wouldn't call it inconsistent, because no one else have done what Mary did. She is a very special case. There might be a big conspiracy between Sherlock and John going on behind the scenes, but I see nothing that points to that in the show.

We didn't realise Sherlock was going to hurl himself off the roof until the scene where it actually happened and the immediate build up to it in the minutes before. If something is going to happen in S4, there's no reason why we should know about it RIGHT NOW, and get hints to it already.

They like surprises in this show.

Sherlock Holmes · June 17, 2015 8:46 am

SusiGo wrote:
Yes. What about "character that deserves forgiveness"? Which for me she is not either. No redemption without regret. And Mary not once shows regret or begs forgiveness. Other than Sherlock.

Why should I forgive a selfish character who even tries to justify her deeds? Who never once is seen saying sorry to her own husband? Or the man she nearly killed?

Not only does she not say sorry, she's actually arrogant about it. "Oh, we're talking now?" Excuse me, Mary, you're lucky he's even associating with you AT ALL after what you did, you really have no right to be sarcastic and snooty about it.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 8:53 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Yes. What about "character that deserves forgiveness"? Which for me she is not either. No redemption without regret. And Mary not once shows regret or begs forgiveness. Other than Sherlock.

Why should I forgive a selfish character who even tries to justify her deeds? Who never once is seen saying sorry to her own husband? Or the man she nearly killed?
Not only does she not say sorry, she's actually arrogant about it. "Oh, we're talking now?" Excuse me, Mary, you're lucky he's even associating with you AT ALL after what you did, you really have no right to be sarcastic and snooty about it.

Thank you, Boss, from the bottom of my heart.