BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 9:31 pm

I would say she is even worse because Sherlock knew they were villains while he trusted Mary.

Sherlock Holmes · June 16, 2015 9:39 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
oh in real life maybe, but in the show, she's not shown as a baddie, let alone an adversary, the same way than Moriarty or Magnussen.

SHERLOCK: How good a shot are you?
MARY: How badly do you want to find out? *casually raises gun in his direction* (Or what she believes is his direction). Pretty much threatening to shoot him....AGAIN. Someone severely wounded who's only just got out of hospital.

And then there's the scene where she's hovering over him when he's all dazed and doped up on morphine "You don't tell John" etc.

Two scenes which, for me, definitely SHOW her as a baddie.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 9:40 pm

And nothing says he doesn't trust her at the end of season 3, or better, it appears that he trust her again. What we see is a settled situation between them ( you may think/ hope it's fake, and maybe season 4 will change things, but I just stick on what is actually shown)

Sherlock Holmes · June 16, 2015 9:40 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I would say she is even worse because Sherlock knew they were villains while he trusted Mary.

Yes, I agree. To me, Mary is the real villain of this episode much more than Magnussen.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 9:44 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
oh in real life maybe, but in the show, she's not shown as a baddie, let alone an adversary, the same way than Moriarty or Magnussen.
SHERLOCK: How good a shot are you?
MARY: How badly do you want to find out? *casually raises gun in his direction* (Or what she believes is his direction). Pretty much threatening to shoot him....AGAIN. Someone severely wounded who's only just got out of hospital.

And then there's the scene where she's hovering over him when he's all dazed and doped up on morphine "You don't tell John" etc.

Two scenes which, for me, definitely SHOW her as a baddie.

I agree that she appears as a baddie in those scene, and, that's one of the tension line of the episode... but the scene after, Sherlock states she saved his live ( the back to what I said ..." you may think/ hope it's fake, and maybe season 4 will change things, but I just stick on what is actually shown")"

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 9:50 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
I would say she is even worse because Sherlock knew they were villains while he trusted Mary.
Yes, I agree. To me, Mary is the real villain of this episode much more than Magnussen.

Same with me. Because there is the element of surprise. With Magnussen we know from the very beginning that he is bad guy.

And then there is Mary kicking the coin over so that Sherlock has to bend down and pick it up.

Sherlock Holmes · June 16, 2015 10:15 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
I would say she is even worse because Sherlock knew they were villains while he trusted Mary.
Yes, I agree. To me, Mary is the real villain of this episode much more than Magnussen.

Same with me. Because there is the element of surprise. With Magnussen we know from the very beginning that he is bad guy.

And then there is Mary kicking the coin over so that Sherlock has to bend down and pick it up.

Oh yeah, that's really mean.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 10:20 pm

Nevertheless, you overthink details, assume what happens off-screen and erase factuality. Wich makes your analysis polluted by fantasy.

Schmiezi · June 17, 2015 4:08 am

On the other hand, many people take what we see at the end of HLV for granted - everybody forgave Mary, she is trusted again etc - and that in a show that has refrained from showing the audience everything they need to know more often than once.

So an analysis that only sticks to what we see can never be profound enough.

Last edited by Schmiezi (June 17, 2015 4:09 am)

SolarSystem · June 17, 2015 4:40 am

I agree, Schmiezi. This isn't a show where you just swallow what appears to be the obvious explanation and be done with it. Or, yes, of course you can do that if you like. But there is nothing wrong with looking beneath the surface and behind facades... after all, that's what Sherlock is doing all the time.
And to me believing that everything is just fine at the end of HLV is an assumption that is polluted by fanatsy. But there you go.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:16 am

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
oh in real life maybe, but in the show, she's not shown as a baddie, let alone an adversary, the same way than Moriarty or Magnussen.
SHERLOCK: How good a shot are you?
MARY: How badly do you want to find out? *casually raises gun in his direction* (Or what she believes is his direction). Pretty much threatening to shoot him....AGAIN. Someone severely wounded who's only just got out of hospital.

And then there's the scene where she's hovering over him when he's all dazed and doped up on morphine "You don't tell John" etc.

Two scenes which, for me, definitely SHOW her as a baddie.

To me, it's not just scenes with the character that decides whether someone is a baddie or not - it's the main character's reaction to them. And in no scene between Sherlock and Mary does he see her, or treat her, as a baddie.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:21 am

But one could consider the scene in the empty house with Sherlock having put up Mary's picture up the facade that he sees her as dangerous.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:23 am

Yes, but that doesn't make her a villain.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 7:23 am

But this would mean that Sherlock's playful banter and obvious initial fascination with Moriarty would indicate he is no baddie either, wouldn't it?

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:24 am

No, I think it's made very clear that everybody views Moriarty as a baddie.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:24 am

Not that alone, no, but the whole exchange in the empty house makes me think she is a badbadbad...

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 7:25 am

Vhanja wrote:
No, I think it's made very clear that everybody views Moriarty as a baddie.

Magnussen seems to regard Mary as a baddie par excellence.

Vhanja · June 17, 2015 7:27 am

I trust Sherlock's judgement above Magnussen's.

SusiGo · June 17, 2015 7:29 am

So you think Sherlock would regard someone who has killed numerous people and married his best friend under false pretences and as good as killed himself not as a baddie? Sorry, but I cannot believe that for the life of me.

mrshouse · June 17, 2015 7:29 am

Well, they should at least be heard equally.