BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » My thoughts about Mary (all episodes)

lil · June 16, 2015 12:07 pm

Yes true.
Except Sherlocks parents of course that resemble Sherlock and John.

What the writers have done with Marys character does seem unexplainable and quite out there at the moment so maybe there will be a point to it and that idea does seem a plausible explanation.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 12:36 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
It would have been so much easier if she'd just accepted Sherlock's offer of help at Magnussen's office. She could have just knocked Magnussen out, and then been like "OK, Sherlock. This is what he's got on me. Can you help?" ><

" can you help and never tell John about it? " that's hardly believable.

SusiGo wrote:
Most heterosexual relationships on the show either do not work or end sadly:

One of the homosexual relationships we hear about: Harry Watson and her wife, doesn't end well either.
And as for now ( ie: end of HLV) ... John and Mary's relationship isn't finished and is shown as on the good way to work well.

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (June 16, 2015 12:39 pm)

SolarSystem · June 16, 2015 12:43 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
Sherlock Holmes wrote:
It would have been so much easier if she'd just accepted Sherlock's offer of help at Magnussen's office. She could have just knocked Magnussen out, and then been like "OK, Sherlock. This is what he's got on me. Can you help?" ><
" can you help and never tell John about it? " that's hardly believable.

It seems you're reading this differently than myself, because I don't see Sherlock Holmes writing "and never tell John about it". She clearly only wrote "Can you help?", and this could mean telling John about it and at the same time trying to find a solution that doesn't involve shooting her husband's best friend. I'm not saying it would have been easy, I'm not saying that John just would have accepted it - but in the version we got he wasn't exactly thrilled about it once he found out, either.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 12:44 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:

SusiGo wrote:
Most heterosexual relationships on the show either do not work or end sadly:
One of the homosexual relationships we hear about: Harry Watson and her wife, doesn't end well either.
And as for now ( ie: end of HLV) ... John and Mary's relationship isn't finished and is shown as on the good way to work well.

I cannot find the quote at the moment but Martin has made it very clear that there will be no idyllic family life for the Watsons.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 12:52 pm

When did he say so? In a recent interview?

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (June 16, 2015 12:55 pm)

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 12:53 pm

Some months ago, I think. And I would be very glad if someone could find it.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 12:55 pm

Anyway, it never appeared to me that the cast has made anything very clear about wahet wil happen in the show. It seems they're not allowed to.

mrshouse · June 16, 2015 12:57 pm

@Susi, as I understood Martins quote it was meant to say that together with a friend like Sherlock it won't be unrocky? Which *shudder* sounds to me a bit like the path I hope the writers won't take, putting Sherlock into the role of a weird uncle, sacrificing himself if needed for others.
@Nature, one can see the state of the wars ran marriage differently at the end of HLV. Some fans - including me- see nothing in the show that justifies a start of forgiving. The whole tarmac scene is off: the red coat, the sadness of the goodbye, Mary's uneasiness at the thought of Moriarty coming back, the dropped smiles of both Sherlock and Mary at their goodbyes.... Here applies the same for me as at the reunion: why don't the boys sort their matters on their own?

SolarSystem · June 16, 2015 12:59 pm

At the very least they tend to say all sorts of dubious things about their characters. Benedict's 'analysis' of Sherlock is only one example.

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 12:59 pm

Mrshouse: That is definitely not the way I understood it because if I remember correctly he was asked about the future with Mary, not his friendship with Sherlock.

Just found it (from an interview with the Sunday Times). I think it can indeed be interpreted in various ways but it is no guarantee for a happy marriage either:

Martin Freeman on Whether Sherlock Will Leave John and Mary Alone to be Happily Married

“Presumably not. It’s the tensions within those characters that make the show. Now that Mary is very much part of the setup, that can’t be a happy, or rather a straightforward, thing. Without the tension between John and Sherlock there is no show. So no, it won’t be un-rocky”

And there is this quote from Martin:

“While we play fast and loose with the original stories, we generally follow the trajectory of what Conan Doyle did. So he [Watson] gets married, and then Mary dies - so at some point presumably she’ll die,” Freeman said.

Last edited by SusiGo (June 16, 2015 1:05 pm)

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 1:09 pm

@mrshouse : just the obvious : at Christmas, we learned they didn't talk to each other for month. On the Tarmac, they stand side by side, holding arms.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 1:13 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Mrshouse: That is definitely not the way I understood it because if I remember correctly he was asked about the future with Mary, not his friendship with Sherlock.

Just found it (from an interview with the Sunday Times). I think it can indeed be interpreted in various ways but it is no guarantee for a happy marriage either:

Martin Freeman on Whether Sherlock Will Leave John and Mary Alone to be Happily Married

“Presumably not. It’s the tensions within those characters that make the show. Now that Mary is very much part of the setup, that can’t be a happy, or rather a straightforward, thing. Without the tension between John and Sherlock there is no show. So no, it won’t be un-rocky”

And there is this quote from Martin:

“While we play fast and loose with the original stories, we generally follow the trajectory of what Conan Doyle did. So he [Watson] gets married, and then Mary dies - so at some point presumably she’ll die,” Freeman said.

with two "presumably" and one "generally", that's not what I call "making very clear"

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 1:17 pm

"We generally follow the trajectory of what Conan Doyle did."

What did he do? He had Watson marry and made the wife disappear more or less from the stories culminating in disposing of her in one sentence. And then making Holmes buy Watson's practice so that he moved back in with him. This is not what I would call a Canon happily ever after for the Watsons.

mrshouse · June 16, 2015 1:29 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
@mrshouse : just the obvious : at Christmas, we learned they didn't talk to each other for month. On the Tarmac, they stand side by side, holding arms.

Just out of curiosity: the scene feels perfectly right for you?

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 1:47 pm

@ susigo : I'm aware of what happens in the canon and may also happen in the show. Even tough, what Freeman said is not an assertion of what will happen.

SolarSystem wrote:
At the very least they tend to say all sorts of dubious things about their characters. Benedict's 'analysis' of Sherlock is only one example.

totally agree. I've read one or two things and wondered what vision of Sherlock Holmes he had. He may need to imagine it to play ( wich he does well) but I thought " lucky he's not in charge of the writing"

@mrshouse. feeling right or not, it is how it is, not more and not less. Of course they're grey areas and unanswered questions about Mary. But we only can do assumptions, preceded by a "maybe" until we get further precisions or new elements.
And we must also be prepared that maybe the questions stay unanswered and blurs won't be cleared, as it happen for the many questions the fal raised, and the general plot will move on.

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (June 16, 2015 1:48 pm)

Sherlock Holmes · June 16, 2015 1:51 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Thanks for your thoughts, lil, very interesting. And it gave me another idea: Most heterosexual relationships on the show either do not work or end sadly:

- John and his various girlfriends
- John and Mary
- Mary and David
- Mrs Hudson and her late husband
- the cabbie who does not live with his family
- Barry Berwick who killed his girlfriend with a knife
- Andy being in love with Soo Lin who gets killed
- all of Molly's attempts at a relationship
(and I think there are more)

In the show the only heterosexual "traditional" marriage/relationship we get that seems to be happy and long-standing is the one between Sherlock's parents (and many people have pointed out the similarities between Mr Holmes and John and Mrs Holmes and Sherlock).

So I think there is a pattern and I trust the writers that they will not do an about-face and use John's marriage of all things to change this pattern.

To continue with the list of unhappy straight couples, there's also:

Anderson and Donovan
Greg and his wife
Mrs Hudson and Mr Chattergee (although you do see them together at the wedding posing for a photograph, they don't look particularly close).
Westie and his girlfriend (Westie dies)

Compared with, happy gay couples:

The guys running the pub in Hounds
Mrs Turner's "married ones".

lil · June 16, 2015 2:18 pm

That MF quote is surprising. A best friends type relationship doesn't usually have tension, more a fun camaraderie, and a best friends type relationship doesn't normally affect a marriage unless , the wife and best friend don't get along or dislike each other.
I don't get the tension if at the end of hlv everyone was all better friends than ever.Which Sherlock and John should have been at least.

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 2:21 pm

Sherlock Holmes wrote:
[To continue with the list of unhappy straight couples, there's also:
The guys running the pub in Hounds
Mrs Turner's "married ones".

Mrs turner's Married ones are only mentionned, we don't know anything about their happiness...
so that make two happy couples : The Holmes parents and the guys running the pub ... one hetero- and one homo-sexual.

It may be safe to say that there's a pattern of non-working couples in the show , but certainly not a distinction between happy and unhappy couple according to sexual orientation.

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (June 16, 2015 2:27 pm)

NatureNoHumansNo · June 16, 2015 2:27 pm

lil wrote:
That MF quote is surprising. A best friends type relationship doesn't usually have tension, more a fun camaraderie, and a best friends type relationship doesn't normally affect a marriage unless , the wife and best friend don't get along or dislike each other.
I don't get the tension if at the end of hlv everyone was all better friends than ever.Which Sherlock and John should have been at least.

Freeman says " the tensions makes the show"...not "the tension in the marriage"
He just means that you can't erase one of the main characters without ruining the show.

Last edited by NatureNoHumansNo (June 16, 2015 2:28 pm)

SusiGo · June 16, 2015 2:39 pm

lil wrote:
That MF quote is surprising. A best friends type relationship doesn't usually have tension, more a fun camaraderie, and a best friends type relationship doesn't normally affect a marriage unless , the wife and best friend don't get along or dislike each other.
I don't get the tension if at the end of hlv everyone was all better friends than ever.Which Sherlock and John should have been at least.

This is so true. And this is also why there is no bromance in the show (please excuse the word). At least in series 3 John and Sherlock are never really relaxed around each other - apart from the stag night - and much of their behaviour is very different from straight male pals. A bit OT but then again not.