BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 10:18 am

But he dies in spite of the minutes they maybe won because Mary maybe called the ambulance before John did. And he does not survive because of those few minutes, at least not in the universe of the show.

The only argument I could accept is that CPR saves him from brain damage. But this is not what we get in the episode. We are told that Mary saves his life because she calls the ambulance, and to me almost nothing about this is true or pure conjecture.

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 10:46 am

He doesn't die, medically speaking. Flatlining isn't the same as being pronounced death.

"I have been asked this many times in the past week whether I thought it was realistic that Sherlock spontaneously came back from the dead. I don’t think it is realistic for Sherlock to come back from being dead, but he wasn't dead at any point in the episode. In fact he was very much alive despite “flatlining”.

In the pivotal scene we see that Sherlock is in asystole i.e. his ECG is a flat line, there is no electrical activity. Asystole alone isn’t enough to officially pronounce someone dead because you need to confirm brain death. Given that Sherlock managed to recover from his cardiac arrest without any neurological problems – I would say that his brain was very much alive throughout the entire ordeal."

From the same meta as linked to in my post above.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 6, 2015 10:48 am)

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 10:52 am

Of course, you have to have a flatlinig EEG to be formally pronounced dead. But the point is, if we assume Mary called the ambulance nothing was won.
And if you're given up with CPR it is a matter of time till you can be pronounced officially dead. In pictures speaking, giving up CPR, turning away of the rescue team, stopping CPR- I thinkit is safe to say that in this show Sherlock was very much considered dead for everybody without having an EEG in the show.

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 10:59 am

I agree, mrshouse. And the show is not made for medical experts but lay viewers. What will stay with them is the doctors turning away from the table and the lights being dimmed or switched off. Quite symbolic, if you ask me.

SolarSystem · May 6, 2015 10:59 am

In real life all this talk about that when you're flatlining you're not 'really' dead might be true - I'm not a medic, I have no idea.
But in the show all those moments with Moriarty and with Sherlock fighting his way back up the stairs because of John, fighting his way back to life wouldn't make any sense and would have no meaning at all if 'technically' he had still been alive. You could just kick the whole mind palace sequence out of the window, it would mean absolutely nothing.

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 11:13 am

As I see it, his heart stopped due to severe blod loss. The medics saved him from brain damage due to CPR. (And he wasn't clinically dead). And for someone like Sherlock, being brain damaged would probably be a fate worse than death.

So I believe that if we are to ignore the fact that he wasn't clinically dead, we can still view Mary having saved Sherlock from a fate worse than death (brain damage).

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 12:05 pm

I see your point, Vhanja, but I don't agree.
In real life cardiac arrest is not sufficient to be declared dead, you have to be brain dead, that is to say, have a flatlining EEG.
In movies or in TV we hardly see that, death is mostly visualized by the heart monitoring.
In real life when you perform CPR of course you don't monitor the brain activity whilst performing, but the heart rate.
In the rescue team it is the head who decides when to give up. They have done so in Sherlock, they gave up, for them there was no hope his heart would start to beat again. The unrepairable brain damage and brain death would have occured a couple of minutes later anyway.
Thus for me it is a lot of brain acrobatics to see Sherlock in this very moment other than dead and given up, hopeless case for the rescue team. And by hopeless I don't mean "well, disabeled, but alive".
So, in conclusion, it is also brain acrobatics for me to see Mary as having saved him. And personally, for me, she is not a likeable character enough to perform that.

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 12:55 pm

mrshouse wrote:
So, in conclusion, it is also brain acrobatics for me to see Mary as having saved him. And personally, for me, she is not a likeable character enough to perform that.

Exactly. What I have not got over still is the IMO ridiculous assumption of someone shooting you but saving your life by a) not shooting you in the head but another dangerous or so not dangerous or whatever place and b) calling an ambulance. I simply cannot believe that we are meant to take that at face value. Or John who is a doctor.

Last edited by SusiGo (May 6, 2015 12:56 pm)

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 1:22 pm

To me it becomes a bit hard to discuss this when the dislike of a character is so strong that one will look away from facts (he wasn't dead) because the character is "not likeable enough". I struggle to understand that line of thought.

I never saw Sherlock as dead, even before knowing about you having to be brain dead to be pronounced dead. I always interpreted the mind palace as him dying, and then - just before he gave up and died - he decided to fight. He fought all the way up until meeting Moriarty. Then he gave up, but the thought of John made him fight again.

This isn't a magic show. I seriously doubt we are supposed to believe Sherlock was like a Jesus figure who returned from the dead. But the thought of John made him fight when he was seconds away from actually dying.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 6, 2015 1:34 pm)

tonnaree · May 6, 2015 1:31 pm

Everyone has good points to make but could we please avoid the phrase "handwaving."
No one on either side of the discusion is simplly handwaving any possibility away. Everyone is offereing evidence to support their opinions. It's just a little thing but I think it would be helpful.

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 1:34 pm

Edited my post to remove the word.

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 1:34 pm

Well, of course he was not dead and he is not Jesus. But he is shown to the viewers to be as near to death as humanly possible. This is what we are meant to see.

And I am not talking about dislike of a character here but about what remains in the memory of the viewers. And I dare say that most of them will remember Sherlock being nearly killed and fighting for his life and not a conveniently arriving ambulance or a "safe" place for a chest shot.

Last edited by SusiGo (May 6, 2015 1:35 pm)

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 1:37 pm

I agree that's not what they will remember or think of firstly. I believe that is why it was mentioned, and why Sherlock explained it. Otherwise people would probably not have thought of it.

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 1:41 pm

Of course, this is one explanation. Another, the one I prefer, might be that he is trying to keep Mary at bay because time is running out.

tonnaree · May 6, 2015 1:46 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Edited my post to remove the word.

Thank you sweetie. Appreciate it.

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 1:59 pm

Okay, I have to answer point after point.
I admit that the liking or not liking of a character is the very least valuable argument in a thread dedicated to discussion.
But I think I have made a lengthy post about the measures of death in real life and how it is visualized in the movies. There's no answer to that so far. Discussing that it is an obvious fact that he wasn't dead is a whole new level for me tbh.
Of course, Sherlock was not really dead for me either because I don't think anything serious happens to a main character, but that was about it.
Up to the point of wanting to fight, giving up, meeting his inner nemesis, I might agree.

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 2:00 pm

And, tonnaree, thank you, I have my problems with the "hand waving" as well...

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 2:05 pm

mrshouse wrote:
Okay, I have to answer point after point.
I admit that the liking or not liking of a character is the very least valuable argument in a thread dedicated to discussion.
But I think I have made a lengthy post about the measures of death in real life and how it is visualized in the movies. There's no answer to that so far. Discussing that it is an obvious fact that he wasn't dead is a whole new level for me tbh.
Of course, Sherlock was not really dead for me either because I don't think anything serious happens to a main character, but that was about it.
Up to the point of wanting to fight, giving up, meeting his inner nemesis, I might agree.

I am with you here. He may not have been dead in a medical sense but the symbolic darkening of the scene and the doctors giving up on him are quite clear. They went as far as possible to show that there was no realistic hope of saving him and that he could only rely on his own strong will to protect John.

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 2:47 pm

I do agree that liking or not liking a character isn't an argument at all. And that was what I thought the argument was - that Mary couldn't have saved Sherlock's life because she wasn't likeable enough.

But back to what the point was, if I understood it correctly. That if John had been the first one to call the ambulance and thus it arriving five-ish minutes later, that wouldn't have mattered. I disagree. I am not a doctor, but from what I understand, during severe blod loss, immediate medical care is essential for survival. And when quick CPR is what will most probably keep away brain damage (and maybe death), every minute counts.

Last edited by Vhanja (May 6, 2015 2:48 pm)

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 2:53 pm

Vhanja wrote:
I do agree that liking or not liking a character isn't an argument at all. And that was what I thought the argument was - that Mary couldn't have saved Sherlock's life because she wasn't likeable enough.

Nope, not what I have said. I have said that the reasoning of why one could say she has rescued him is a very big acrobatic for me because it takes measures that even go a step further than the " she shot him in a safe place and just missed" scenario.