BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Schmiezi · April 16, 2015 6:58 am

Liberty wrote:
I've always wanted Sherlock to have a bigger plan in S3, and John pretending to forgive would fit with that. But I don't think those two episodes of forgiving can be compared directly. Mary has lied to John from the moment she met him - he didn't even know who she shot Sherlock and Sherlock exposed him. She did try to protect John to some extent (by not shooting Magnussen), but Sherlock's "death" had the purpose of protecting John and others. He was working solely for good. I find it hard to see them as the same thing at all.

The way you put it Mary would have to show even More remorse that Sherlock. Not less, the way she does.

Good point!

SusiGo · April 16, 2015 7:17 am

True. The deed that have to be forgiven and the forgiveness as such are very different in both cases. But as Schmiezi said, Mary would have far more reason to beg forgiveness than Sherlock, not less.

Vhanja · April 16, 2015 8:21 am

I don't think those scenes can be compared like that either. Mainly because I don't think John forgave Mary in that scene. That wasn't was the scene was about, as I read it. It was about him telling Mary that had chosen to start forgiving her. John started to forgive Sherlock the moment he walked towards 221B again after his clinic hours (and was abducted). No smiling there either, just a similar kind of determination. (Maybe he had started that process even sooner, in his mind).

So even though the carrage scene was a forced forgiveness, it was still something he was ready mentally to give. He wasn't there yet with Mary at Christmas. He was at the same place as when he was standing outside 221B.

Vhanja · April 19, 2015 9:07 am

Funny sum-up of why I don't want Mary in the show:

http://loudest-subtext-in-television.tumblr.com/post/116767240289/it-was-a-sunny-thursday-morning-when-a-telegram

Schmiezi · April 20, 2015 4:28 am

nakahara · April 20, 2015 7:12 am

Vhanja wrote:
Funny sum-up of why I don't want Mary in the show:

http://loudest-subtext-in-television.tumblr.com/post/116767240289/it-was-a-sunny-thursday-morning-when-a-telegram

Great!

mrshouse · April 20, 2015 7:13 am

No Sherlock Holmes story ever.... Truer words have seldomly been spoken... LOL
I like that very much

nakahara · April 30, 2015 8:46 am

BBC3, I love you:

SusiGo · April 30, 2015 8:53 am

Oh, that was brilliant. Finally getting from the horse's mouth what many of us were thinking.

(And they will broadcast the episodes from 4 May again so stay tuned. They have started tweeting again. Two male emojis holding hands )

Last edited by SusiGo (April 30, 2015 8:53 am)

tonnaree · April 30, 2015 12:59 pm

BBCthree loves and understands us.

mrshouse · April 30, 2015 4:01 pm

Someone should actually draw emojis holding hands...

Vhanja · May 4, 2015 8:04 am

I just had to share this, it made me laugh.

http://221behavior.tumblr.com/post/118064401767/sherlock-i-know-i-speak-for-mary-as-well-when-i

SusiGo · May 4, 2015 8:22 am

Great one.

Lilythiell · May 4, 2015 4:30 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Here is some Mary as a villain appreciation:

http://tykobrian.tumblr.com/post/116279351699/amanda-abbington-rocks-her-mary-captain-liddy

Yes, Mary is terrifying. Possibly even more so than Jim -after all, we knew from the moment we met him that he was "not a very nice person" -we had an indication of his character through Jeff's actions, but...the effect he had in person just confirmed our suspicions, didn't it? We can't say that about Mary, at all. She was so...unassuming.

Lilythiell · May 4, 2015 4:40 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Funny sum-up of why I don't want Mary in the show:

http://loudest-subtext-in-television.tumblr.com/post/116767240289/it-was-a-sunny-thursday-morning-when-a-telegram

SusiGo · May 6, 2015 6:35 am

So I had this thought when waking up this morning (please tell me if we had this already). We have talked about how Sherlock's defence of Mary does not really make sense to some of us because Magnussen might have phoned the ambulance, Mary was wearing gloves most of which do not work on a smartphone, that the operator would have told John that someone already called an ambulance, etc.

I think there is another much simpler reason why she did not save his life. In the 221B scene John asks:

JOHN: How did she save your life?
SHERLOCK: She phoned the ambulance.
JOHN: I phoned the ambulance.

And then:

SHERLOCK: You didn’t find me for another five minutes. Left to you, I would have died. The average arrival time for a London ambulance is ... eight minutes.

So Sherlock is talking about a time difference of mere minutes. But we know - and John as a doctor should know - that these minutes did not make a difference. Because Sherlock died in hospital, even after having been found and treated in time. The ambulance was there in time and yet he flatlined.

Sherlock told John Magnussen would be out of his office from seven to ten. When they came in, Janine was still there. So if we assume that they came at about half past seven or even eight o'clock, he would have arrived in hospital about half past eight or nine o'clock. We see Mary arriving at daylight the next morning. So it may have taken them hours to save his life.

Of course John does not know that Sherlock came back to life for him. But he is a doctor and was probably told what happened in the operating theatre. So he should recognise Sherlock's life-saving explanation for what it is - a lie to placate Mary.

Last edited by SusiGo (May 6, 2015 6:36 am)

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 6:56 am

Interesting point, Susi. I never thought about this. Sherlock argues with the neat time frame and it didn't matter anyway. I don't think we had this here already.

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 7:46 am

I think maybe we would need a doctor's opinion for this. Why did his heart stop? Would the chance of his heart stopp be less if they had reached him sooner?

I know the first question is already answered by the few medical metas we've had up here.

In one of the other medical essays on the shooting, Wellingtoongoose says:

"The reason that Sherlock managed to survive with his brain intact was because the doctors had been doing CPR on him up until the moment we see them turn away."

So perhaps, if the doctors had less time to work on him, there might be a bigger chance of brain damage.

http://wellingtongoose.tumblr.com/post/75415111199/how-sherlock-survived-his-heart-stopping-a

Last edited by Vhanja (May 6, 2015 7:47 am)

mrshouse · May 6, 2015 9:42 am

I'm not sure, if this is what Susi wanted to point out. We know that Sherlock's heart stopped because of massive blood loss, he got into shock.
The thing is, in Baker Street Sherlock argues in favour of Mary because of the time frames. But the point is that it doesn't really matter (timewise, that is to say! but very much concerning morals of characters!) who called when. He flatlined and the doctors gave him up.

Vhanja · May 6, 2015 10:02 am

I would say that it did matter. When talking about huge amount of blod loss, I would say every minute counts.