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May 2, 2015 8:28 pm  #41


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Yeah, it probably does. Because if Mycroft could call of the snipers, the only reason left for Sherlock to die was to go undercover for two years. Which makes his whole point of "I jumped to save your life" moot.


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May 2, 2015 8:34 pm  #42


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Not necessarily. Moriarty had likely instructed his network to kill Lestrade, John and Mrs. Hudson in any case should Sherlock survive (at least as far as Sherlock knows). So it was not just about the three snipers, the whole network had to be taken out- which Sherlock did- before he could come back to life.

Last edited by Lola Red (May 2, 2015 8:41 pm)


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May 2, 2015 8:35 pm  #43


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Vhanja wrote:

Have to say - there is one thing in TEH that doesn't make sense at all compared to TRF.

When Sherlock explains it all to Anderson, he's asked about the sniper aiming at John. Sherlock says that "Mycroft intervened before he could make the shot". That makes NO sense, because the whole point of Sherlock jumping was to prevent the shot. There shouldn't be any need of Mycroft to intervene at all, the jump would be the cue for the sniper to not take the shot.

THANK YOU!!! 
(runs around in circles waving hands madly)

NO sense. Oi!

 

May 4, 2015 8:57 pm  #44


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Vhanja wrote:

Yeah, it probably does. Because if Mycroft could call of the snipers, the only reason left for Sherlock to die was to go undercover for two years. Which makes his whole point of "I jumped to save your life" moot

Oh thank you... that's what I'm thinking since I saw the empty hearse! I glad to read it from someone else!

And about

Lola Red wrote:

Moriarty had likely instructed his network to kill Lestrade, John and Mrs. Hudson in any case should Sherlock survive .

To me, it makes no sense. Only Moriarty had an obsession about Sherlock Holmes. Moriarty being dead, why would his network care about threatening Holmes friend? If "the network" fears to be dismantled and each member sent to jail, the best would be to kill Holmes himself.  

 

 

May 4, 2015 9:04 pm  #45


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Well, there are lots of people in everyday life who try to make dispositions beyond their own death. With  someone as crazy and obsessed as Moriarty, I am not surprised at all that he would try to do the same on a very large scale, i.e. other people's life and death. I do not think that he is acting logical here. 

Moreoever, we have to assume that he is possibly alive and just continuing his "game" with Sherlock. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

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May 5, 2015 7:18 am  #46


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Yes, I think the main goal was to destroy the network - I think that's what Sherlock was aiming for from the begining of the episode. Having John witness the suicide was part of that plan - although I think he is noble and heroic here, making huge sacrifices himself to save lives, he does (have to) use John in a cruel way.  I think it's clear that John (and the others) were being watched, but for signs that Sherlock was alive, not to kill them.  That's why Sherlock couldn't get in touch - he needed to protect the operation.  I thought John was still at risk as well, but thinking of it, they'd be daft to kill John when he's their link to Sherlock (although I suppose he's stil at risk if they wanted information from him, and possibly would be used against Sherlock again - he wasn't really out of danger until the network was dismantled).

It also makes me think that whatever the public thought, there may have been some doubt in the network over Sherlock's death, if Sherlock thought they were watching.   Presumably that doubt had come from Moriarty, so Moriarty must have gone on the rooftop with the suspicion that Sherlock had a fake suicide plan.   (Unless Moriarty is alive and planted the doubt after the "death"). 

 

 

May 5, 2015 8:27 am  #47


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

See, I didn't think that forcing John to watch was part of the plan, because Sherlock sent him away--- John is the one who came back, and by that time, there was no more time. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 5, 2015 8:27 am)

 

May 5, 2015 8:38 am  #48


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

I would assume that Sherlock expected him to turn around and return as soon as he found out that Mrs.Hudson was safe. I think the plan was not so much to make sure that John was not there at all, but just to ensure he would not be on the rooftop. Up there it would have been practically impossible to control him enough to make any plan work. So by limiting John's possible movements the equation that needed to be solved to successfully fake Sherlock's death became much simpler.


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We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    http://i.picasion.com/av/83/2rrf.jpg
 

May 5, 2015 8:47 am  #49


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Lola Red wrote:

I would assume that Sherlock expected him to turn around and return as soon as he found out that Mrs.Hudson was safe. I think the plan was not so much to make sure that John was not there at all, but just to ensure he would not be on the rooftop. Up there it would have been practically impossible to control him enough to make any plan work. So by limiting John's possible movements the equation that needed to be solved to successfully fake Sherlock's death became much simpler.

But Sherlock , for all his insight-- isn't psychic -- he can deduce, but he can't just look into the future and "see" exactly what John would do. If he truly had the gift of prescience, he'd never have gotten into  trouble with Moriarty in the first place. I think a lot of how we see this has to do with whether we truly think that Sherlock's motives are ...nefarious. Cruel. So-- as written, (TRF), I'm just not seeing Sherlock purposely traumatise John in that way. It isn't until TEH, that the whole equation changes, and Sherlock then looks like a monster. 

But this is one of the reasons that TEH drives me batty! :-)

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 5, 2015 8:48 am)

 

May 5, 2015 9:50 am  #50


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Nowhere in the show does Sherlock say "I jumped to save your life" or "I did it to save John's life", that's just the cute Johnlocky explanation that the fans have associated with it. If you go back to the original text of the Empty House, and read how Holmes explains his disappearance and faked death to Watson, he says the following:

"The instant the professor had disappeared it struck me what a really extraordinary lucky chance fate had placed in my way. I knew that Moriarty was not the only man who had sworn my death. There were at least three others whose desire for vengeance upon me would only be increased by the death of their leader. They were all most dangerous men. One or other would certainly get me. On the other hand, if all the world was convinced that I was dead they would take liberties, these men, they would soon lay themselves open, and sooner or later I could destroy them. Then it would be time for me to announce that I was still in the land of the living."

I'm not saying that this was Sherlock's line of thinking too but it does certainly give you something to consider. Sherlock knew that Moriarty had other people in his network whom he needed to bring down, and it would be so much easier for him to do it if the world believed he was dead.


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May 5, 2015 9:54 am  #51


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

But Sherlock didn't *only* jump to save John-- he also saved Mrs. Hudson and Lestrade---so he could have had more than one motivation. So; save his freinds (Johnlock biases don't even figure into it) and take down Moriarty's network. Personally, I think by that time he was at least affilliated with MI6. 

Last edited by RavenMorganLeigh (May 5, 2015 9:55 am)

 

May 5, 2015 10:31 am  #52


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Given that Mofiss pick from the origiinal stories what they want and disregard the rest, I don't think there's any point in going back to ACD's text to help interpreting the tv episodes.

And it the episode it's clear enough (for me):
=10pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10pt=11pt=10ptJIM (wearily exasperated): Oh, just kill yourself. It’s a lot less effort.
(Sherlock turns away, pacing distractedly.)
JIM: Go on. For me.
(He makes his voice into a high-pitched squeal for the next word.)
JIM: Pleeeeeease?
(In a sudden movement, Sherlock grabs him by the collar of his coat with both hands and spins him around so that Jim’s back is to the drop. He stares into his face and then shoves him back one step nearer the edge. Jim looks at him with interest as Sherlock’s breathing becomes shorter.)
SHERLOCK: You’re insane.
(Jim blinks.)
JIM: You’re just getting that now?
(Sherlock shoves him further back, now holding him over the edge. Jim whoops almost triumphantly and gazes back at him with no fear in his eyes, holding his hands out wide and committing himself to Sherlock’s grasp.)
JIM: Okay, let me give you a little extra incentive.
(Sherlock frowns. Jim’s voice becomes more savage.)
JIM: Your friends will die if you don’t.
(Fear begins to creep into Sherlock’s eyes.)
SHERLOCK: John.
JIM: Not just John. (In a whisper) Everyone.
SHERLOCK: Mrs Hudson.
JIM (in a whisper, with a delighted smile): Everyone.
SHERLOCK: Lestrade.
JIM: Three bullets; three gunmen; three victims. There’s no stopping them now.
(Furiously, Sherlock pulls Jim back upwards to safety. Jim stares into his face.)
JIM: Unless my people see you jump.
(Sherlock gazes past him, breathing heavily and appearing lost in horror. Jim shakes himself free of his grasp and smiles triumphantly.)
JIM: You can have me arrested; you can torture me; you can do anything you like with me; but nothing’s gonna prevent them from pulling the trigger. Your only three friends in the world will die ... unless ...
SHERLOCK: ... unless I kill myself – complete your story.
(Jim nods and smiles ecstatically.)
(Thanks to Ariane DeVere for the transcript - http://arianedevere.livejournal.com/31651.html)

And then Sherlock jumps and we see a would-be assassin packing up his weapon - mission accomplished for Sherlock, for the moment.

But how did the assassin learn that Sherlock had jumped without noticing that he had jumped onto a huge bright blue airbag? Even if he had been in a position so that his sightline was blocked by the ambulance station, like John's - HOW could Sherlock/Mycroft have known that in advance? If John's assassin had known the suicide was fake, that would have been the end of John, right there and then.

(BTW, another thing that bugs me: John and Sherlock run from the police, escaping after being arrested. But apparently the police are never looking for them - not in St. Bart's, Sherlock's "second home", not in Baker Street.....)

No, this f... episode makes absolutely no bl.... sense... (even Hänsel and Gretel gets misquoted...)

 

May 5, 2015 11:18 am  #53


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

No words. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

May 5, 2015 12:30 pm  #54


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

I'm not even sure this is the right thread for people who think that TRF doesn't make any sense anyway. In that case it didn't really take TEH to ruin TRF, because TRF has been ruined to start with, right?
 


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May 5, 2015 12:34 pm  #55


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

Indeed. 
 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)

http://up.picr.de/28609194so.png

 
 

May 5, 2015 4:56 pm  #56


Re: Does The Empty Hearse ruin this episode?

SolarSystem wrote:

I'm not even sure this is the right thread for people who think that TRF doesn't make any sense anyway. In that case it didn't really take TEH to ruin TRF, because TRF has been ruined to start with, right?
 

Agreed. There's tons of threads on TRF which that point can be discussed. We should try and keep a bit more on topic here if possible.


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