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April 26, 2015 9:08 am  #3741


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think their chemistry is limited too, but I do think Sherlock treats Mary differently to anyone else - there's a softness and lack of sarkiness towards her, that is unusual for him. He almost defers to her.  And the comment (in the panel) is made in the context of saying that Sherlock failed to deduce Mary because he liked her.   I agree that the ganging up is not always shown in a pleasant light, and I think that could be a reason for John not liking their connection.   As I said, though, I don't really see it in the show.   Although any excuse to rewatch is good. 

 

April 26, 2015 10:21 am  #3742


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think John's disapproval is supposed to be shown in those short scenes like the one in the cab, when he gives Mary that unbelieving look because she states to like Sherlock, or this mentioning of him gaining weight. It's not masterfully included and written out I have to say though. I agree that Sherlock acts very differently around Mary. Just two quick thoughts: does he do so, because it's genuinely about her and her character? For me difficult to see. Or because she is a part of John and for the moment it's sort of the deal package? Important difference and much more plausible for me. If it's supposed to be the first I'm afraid Ben and Amanda failed to convince me.
And last, is his being different around Mary shown in a positive and sympathetic light? I don't think so. But that's another discussion.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 26, 2015 10:24 am  #3743


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I think that if John was uneasy about Sherlock´s and Mary´s friendly relationship, he would prevent them from meeting that much (for example, he certainly would not plan his marriage in Sherlock´s flat, involving him in his personal life to such extent). In my opinion, from John´s long relationship with Sherlock, he noticed Sherlock´s absolute disinterest in women other than charismatic Irene Adler and so he can´t imagine that Sherlock could feel anything deep towards Mary, in his eyes a very normal, ordinary woman (he doesn´t know about her past yet). Later, when cat´s out of the bag, John is just angry that Mary and Sherlock pulled his leg, but I fail to see him being jealous over their connection.... they really are not that friendly towards each other (and she shot him, which is hardly a friendly gesture).


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 26, 2015 10:26 am  #3744


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, that just deepened their bond...


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 26, 2015 10:31 am  #3745


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, yes, how could I think that, I forgot how complicated they psychology is... 

(maybe her shooting him was a twisted declaration of love?) 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 26, 2015 10:35 am  #3746


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Oh, I wouldn't be too surprised if this was around S4 the declared intention by evil Moftiss...
*shudder*


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

April 26, 2015 10:53 am  #3747


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

God forbid!
(shudders too)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 26, 2015 11:11 am  #3748


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

The strange thing is that I can always accept and believe how Sherlock thinks or feels about a woman: Mrs Hudson, Irene, Janine, Sarah, Molly, all fine with me. But his relationship with Mary simply does not feel right to me, as if the writers were trying too hard. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 26, 2015 11:14 am  #3749


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Maybe they weren´t - a friendly facade of both Sherlock and Mary was maybe only a cover for their mutual enmity (the story doesn´t exlude that possibility).


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 26, 2015 11:17 am  #3750


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

This I could accept. But not the sassy "that's my girl, we are talking about your weight behind your back" variety. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 26, 2015 11:18 am  #3751


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

(shudders again)


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

April 26, 2015 11:48 am  #3752


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Does Sherlock actually talk about John's weight with Mary?  Or is it another of his deductions?  (He can deduce some things about Mary). 
 

 

April 26, 2015 12:04 pm  #3753


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Liberty wrote:

I think their chemistry is limited too, but I do think Sherlock treats Mary differently to anyone else - there's a softness and lack of sarkiness towards her, that is unusual for him. He almost defers to her.  And the comment (in the panel) is made in the context of saying that Sherlock failed to deduce Mary because he liked her.   I agree that the ganging up is not always shown in a pleasant light, and I think that could be a reason for John not liking their connection.   As I said, though, I don't really see it in the show.   Although any excuse to rewatch is good. 

I still put my money that if a third Holmes exists, Mary is it. That would explain why Mycroft did nothing after Mary shoot Sherlock....

 

April 26, 2015 12:05 pm  #3754


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I always understood Sherlock's friendlier behaviour towards Mary to come from him wanting to like her and be nice to her for John's sake. 

I do understand John disliking the two of them ganging up on him as they do sometimes. But I don't understand why he should dislike the two of them getting along in general. In a way I think Mary has a bigger reason to jealous of Sherlock than John has of the two of them. Not for any romantic reasons, but because of the time spent together, and the place and importance Sherlock has in John's life.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

April 27, 2015 10:16 am  #3755


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

So it seems something changed during Sherlocked with regard to Johnlock. Here is a short summary (please note that I do not share the blogger's view on Benedict given in brackets):

http://welovethebeekeeper.tumblr.com/post/117505823798/i-hope-everyone-appreciates-the-magnitude-of-the

But for me the very best thing is this (and it really gives me hope that there will be no crime-solving trio in series 4):

“It’s not a ‘gang’ show, it’s the Sherlock and John show. It’s about developing their characters and their relationship, and the characters drawn into their orbit.”
—     Steven Moffat answering a question about minor characters 

 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 27, 2015 10:19 am  #3756


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I really like that statement myself from Moffat myself. It made me relax and removed any worries I might have had concerning where the future is going.

 


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

April 27, 2015 10:21 am  #3757


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Yes, me too.

And I could add Mark's apparently knowing and relaxed reaction to a lady wearing a "Softly, Softly" T-shirt. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 27, 2015 10:58 am  #3758


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I don't think there's a change in policy - all of this stuff has kind of been said before, one way or another (either in the show itself, or in comments by the team or both!).   Why on earth would Sherlock be jealous of Jim and Molly?  I don't think there's ever even been a hint of romantic interest in Molly.  The scenes in TEH are lovely, but it's clearly a friend/colleague relationship.  I don't see why people thought we were supposed to think Sherlock felt "that way" about Molly.   

It's the same with the rest - we know that John makes Sherlock happy, that Mrs Hudson wants them to be gay, that Irene comes between them (although in some ways, I think their relationship is developed in that episode), etc.  Nothing "new and glorious", although I'd have love to have heard the talks and I'm sure they were interesting.

Even the statement (about it being the Sherlock and John show) is something that he's said right from the beginning (although in a different context, I suppose - but he's always said that their relationship is central).  Yes, they could develop it in another direction, but it will always be about the two of them. 

Honestly, I think the writer is being misled a little. 

Last edited by Liberty (April 27, 2015 11:02 am)

 

April 27, 2015 11:18 am  #3759


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

Many people who were present at the con felt that there was a shift in Steven's and Mark's attitude and the general attitude towards Johnlock as well. I was not present, so I am not going to disagree with them.

As for the quote: In which direction could Moffat and his co-writers develop the relationship? Because for a writer to develop means to do something new, not to return to something we had episodes ago. We had them as flatmates, colleagues, best friends - what else can there be if you want to drive the story forward? 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

April 27, 2015 12:09 pm  #3760


Re: Johnlock: The Official Debate

I'm just grateful none of the crazies tried to get in anyones face.  Or at least if they did it was kept under control.  I want these conventions to be a good experiance for the cast as well as the fans.  I want them to know how happy they make us and how much we appreciate their hard work.


----------------------------------------------------------------------
Proud President and Founder of the OSAJ.  
Honorary German  
"Anyone who takes himself too seriously always runs the risk of looking ridiculous; anyone who can consistently laugh at himself does not".
 -Vaclav Havel 
"Life is full of wonder, Love is never wrong."   Melissa Ethridge

I ship it harder than Mrs. Hudson.
    
 
 

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