BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

RavenMorganLeigh · April 11, 2015 9:33 pm

SusiGo wrote:
I just had a look at the HLV commentary and found this interesting quote by Steven (when John burns the flash drive in the fireplace):

Steven: “But also it’s a fun thing, isn’t it, because I think this whole sequence is being rather wonderful, but the truth is, structurally it allows you to get past the fact that Mary has shot Sherlock and been revealed to be a villain and now is gonna be forgiven, in a relatively short space of time! And you sort of buy it. Curiously, I think if we did that in a linear way, you’d think that not enough time has passed.”

What I find interesting is a) that Steven explicitly calls Mary a villain, and b) the quite vague wording "you sort of buy it." There is for once the qualifying "sort of" and if I am not mistaken "to buy something" may also mean to believe something that is not necessarily true.
He seems to realise that at least some people will continue to have their doubts.

The problem for me, is that.. well, I never bought what Mofftiss was selling, here. At all. So, with me-- they missed the mark.

Harriet · April 11, 2015 9:36 pm

I don't see your point, Liberty? What is the meaning of sort of buy it?

Harriet · April 11, 2015 9:39 pm

RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
The problem for me, is that.. well, I never bought what Mofftiss was selling, here. At all. So, with me-- they missed the mark.

Perhaps the you is addressed to those who actually did

RavenMorganLeigh · April 11, 2015 9:45 pm

Harriet wrote:
RavenMorganLeigh wrote:
The problem for me, is that.. well, I never bought what Mofftiss was selling, here. At all. So, with me-- they missed the mark.
Perhaps the you is addressed to those who actually did

That is quite possible-- maybe it's because I'm older, maybe I keep injecting too much reality into it, but all Mofftiss' approach did for me was make me question the writing/characterization choices. It seemed slapdash, not well thought out. I wanted to really understand *how John could forgive Mary for shooting his best freind, the man he grieved over for two years---" and there wasn't enough explanation of his (or anyone else's ) motivation to make it clear...to me. The only person I "sort of" ;-) understood, was Sherlock.

SusiGo · April 11, 2015 9:47 pm

I agree. And I take Steven's "sort of buy it" as a confirmation that what we see is not satisfactory and may be doubted.

Harriet · April 11, 2015 9:55 pm

Same here.

SolarSystem · April 11, 2015 10:01 pm

The way I understand it, Steven's "And you sort of buy it" might very well be continued by saying "...and at the same time you sort of don't." I'm not saying that Steven would have wanted to continue the sentence like that, but in my head it plays out that way. And he could have made it a lot clearer if he had wanted to by simply saying something along the lines of "And it leaves no doubt and is totally believable".

Last edited by SolarSystem (April 11, 2015 10:02 pm)

SusiGo · April 11, 2015 10:03 pm

Yes. Or he could have just said "and you believe/accept it". Which he did not.

SolarSystem · April 11, 2015 10:06 pm

It might be really interesting to re-edit that whole sequence and bring it into a chronological order. I know of some film students who did this with "Pulp Fiction". I've never seen the result, but I assume the effect to be quite thrilling.

SusiGo · April 11, 2015 10:08 pm

Great idea. Maybe someone on tumblr would do this? Would be very interesting to see.

RavenMorganLeigh · April 11, 2015 10:37 pm

I've just had the thought that for me-- and my inability to suspend my disbelief comes from the idea that because TRF was never conclusively resolved-- it created a sort of "poisoned well": anything drawn from that well *could* be suspected of a sort of lackadasical approach to writing--the plot holes don't matter, it doesn't have to make sense-- is that Post-Modernism? Hmmmmm.

Liberty · April 12, 2015 7:18 am

Harriet wrote:
I don't see your point, Liberty? What is the meaning of sort of buy it?

I think it means that the way it's filmed makes it easier to believe - if they'd gone sequentially, it would have felt as if the forgiveness came too soon after Mary had been exposed (even though there's actually a quite a passage of time between the two).

"Buy it", I would say means something like "believe it", "accept it".

"Sort of" is pretty much the same as "kind of", isn't it? Usually (but not always) fairly meaningless filler - something that could be left out with altering the meaning. I think it's really common to use "sort of" or "kind of" like that in everyday speech - I know I do, and Moftiss do a lot too. The way Stephen says it there sounds to me like filler - he's not emphasising it as in "you sort of buy it, but don't really". It's more "you sort of buy it this way, but wouldn't if we did it the other way". In other words, the point isn't the doubt over buying it in this case, but the contrast between this and the other case.

Sorry, that was a bit longwinded, but wanted to be clear and when I started thinking about it, it's a rather odd expression that's used so often!

Last edited by Liberty (April 12, 2015 7:22 am)

SusiGo · April 13, 2015 6:53 am

Here is some Mary as a villain appreciation:

http://tykobrian.tumblr.com/post/116279351699/amanda-abbington-rocks-her-mary-captain-liddy

mrshouse · April 13, 2015 6:59 am

Oh, I can totally sympathize with AA being a reeeeeally great and creepy villain, that would be great!

mrshouse · April 13, 2015 11:40 am

Have we had this one? It's not really new but a summary I can sympathize with
http://raiphend.tumblr.com/post/76328420487/sherlock-john-mary-what-it-means-to-love-someone

SusiGo · April 15, 2015 8:34 pm

Thanks for the link, mrshouse. This sums it up quite well.

I just found this. The subject of forgiveness has always been nagging me and the comparison is quite telling:

http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/116491869931/incurablylazydevil-forgiveness-sherlock-vs

For me this is not so much about John but about Sherlock/Mary. It shows the one thing that Sherlock has in series 3 and that Mary is obviously lacking: humility.

Harriet · April 15, 2015 10:16 pm

SusiGo wrote:
...
http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/116491869931/incurablylazydevil-forgiveness-sherlock-vs

For me this is not so much about John but about Sherlock/Mary. It shows the one thing that Sherlock has in series 3 and that Mary is obviously lacking: humility.

Well, now I *sort of buy it* that John forgave her

Last edited by Harriet (April 15, 2015 10:17 pm)

tonnaree · April 15, 2015 10:50 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Thanks for the link, mrshouse. This sums it up quite well.

I just found this. The subject of forgiveness has always been nagging me and the comparison is quite telling:

http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/116491869931/incurablylazydevil-forgiveness-sherlock-vs

For me this is not so much about John but about Sherlock/Mary. It shows the one thing that Sherlock has in series 3 and that Mary is obviously lacking: humility.

But also, look at the differences in John's face between the two acts of "forgiveness." You can't tell me that Martin (I can do that with a look) Freeman wasn't trying to tell us something.

Schmiezi · April 16, 2015 4:32 am

tonnaree wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Thanks for the link, mrshouse. This sums it up quite well.

I just found this. The subject of forgiveness has always been nagging me and the comparison is quite telling:

http://johnnlocked.tumblr.com/post/116491869931/incurablylazydevil-forgiveness-sherlock-vs

For me this is not so much about John but about Sherlock/Mary. It shows the one thing that Sherlock has in series 3 and that Mary is obviously lacking: humility.
But also, look at the differences in John's face between the two acts of "forgiveness." You can't tell me that Martin (I can do that with a look) Freeman wasn't trying to tell us something.

Especially a look at the last picture of both columns is very telling, I think.

Liberty · April 16, 2015 6:34 am

I've always wanted Sherlock to have a bigger plan in S3, and John pretending to forgive would fit with that. But I don't think those two episodes of forgiving can be compared directly. Mary has lied to John from the moment she met him - he didn't even know who she shot Sherlock and Sherlock exposed him. She did try to protect John to some extent (by not shooting Magnussen), but Sherlock's "death" had the purpose of protecting John and others. He was working solely for good. I find it hard to see them as the same thing at all.