BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock’s Sexuality: An In-Depth Contemplation and Study

besleybean · October 6, 2014 6:03 pm

Holy Mary.
I mainly agree with you, but not entirely certain what it has to do with Sherlock's sexuality...
I know, I wandered OT, too!

NatureNoHumansNo · March 31, 2015 1:32 pm

We walk into that one all the time,” Moffat tells EW. “It’s a funny thing when a character for over 100 years has been saying, ‘I don’t do that at all.’ He’s been saying it over 100 years! He’s not interested in [sex]. He’s willfully staying away from that to keep his brain pure—a Victorian belief, that. But everyone wants to believe he’s gay. He’s not gay. He’s not straight. And Doctor Watson is very clear that he prefers women. People want to fantasize about it. It’s fine. But it’s not in the show.

nakahara · March 31, 2015 1:39 pm

He forgot to add: "That´s why I wrote the 10 minutes dying scene in which Sherlock was resuscitated by the mere thought of his beloved John and the tarmac scene in which you could clearly hear "I love you" between the lines. Becaise it´s NOT-IN-THE-SHOW."

tonnaree · March 31, 2015 1:41 pm

Moffat is also the man who said No way is Moriarty alive.

SusiGo · March 31, 2015 1:44 pm

And this is the man who also said:

Steven Moffat: “Sherlock Holmes, again, must have sexual impulses. (…) The fact is, he decides to put all that in an iron box to make his brain work better. He wants to rise above us like a snowcapped mountain, but he’s actually a volcano, and that’s where the story is. That’s where the story is.”

And Benedict:

"He has a sexuality," the actor went on to say, eschewing the idea that Sherlock is somehow a non-sexual entity. "There's no doubt about that. It's just that he subsumes it to do his work. But the idea that he doesn't know or doesn't experience sex I think is anathema, I really do."

Last edited by SusiGo (March 31, 2015 1:47 pm)

tonnaree · March 31, 2015 1:49 pm

Now imagiing flaming lava dripping down the walls of 221b.

NatureNoHumansNo · March 31, 2015 1:50 pm

well, some of us didn't hear "I love you", which doesn't make us deaf or heartless;)
I know it won't convince some, but, the more I watch Sherlock Holmes, the more I think that he indeed has feelings, but doesn't get involved in romantical relationships, and certainly won't in the show.

Ah-chie · March 31, 2015 3:53 pm

I'm one of the ones that definitely didn't hear "I love you" in any scene (tarmac "subtext" or otherwise) - and I know for a fact that I am not heartless or deaf.

I do indeed think Sherlock has lots of feelings (the most prevalently exhibited in the series are his very deep feelings of friendship for John) bubbling underneath his cool exterior, and the quotes that SusiGo posted from Moffat and BC support that notion, I think - but these quotes don't lend any weight to the idea that Sherlock is "in love" with Dr. John Watson.

Sherlock isn't an asexual being - he is a man who has the same sexual impulses like a lot of other men, but he has trained himself (putting his feelings in an iron box/subsumes it) to act as an asexual would outwardly because he is of the mind that is how he will function better at his one true passion - being the world's best and only consulting detective.

It is interesting the word Ben chose - "subsumes"... it means he absorbs his feelings of sexuality to do his work because the work to him overshadowes all other things. The feelings are still felt originally but they are then subsumed, or incorporated, as part of his work passion instead of being a distraction from it. That is what makes Sherlock who he is. Without this process of subsumption he would perhaps be just an ordinary man working as an ordinary detective... good at his job but just ordinary good - not Sherlock Holmes. IMO the day he allows this process to end (and he gets caught up in deeply felt romantic relationships and responsibilites) is the day he will cease to be Sherlock Holmes.

I am firmly in the camp, small though we may be on this board, that doesn't want any (Johnlock or otherwise) romantic relationships hinted at subtextually or shown overtly in BBC Sherlock. And thankfully it doesn't sound like it will happen either (regardless of the fanfic imaginings of JL fans). I hope they stick to their "guns".

-Val

Last edited by Ah-chie (March 31, 2015 3:54 pm)

Liberty · March 31, 2015 4:11 pm

There was an interview between S1 and S2 - I don't have it to hand at the moment - where Moftiss said that they hadn't decided on Sherlock's sexuality until writing S2. I took it to mean that they HAD decided one way or another for S2, but it looks as if the decision was to just not go there at all? Not decide? Whatever his sexuality is, he's going to repress it.

Benedict, on the other hand, seems to like back story and does seem to have considered Sherlock's history and motivations in depth. His interpretations don't necessarily fit my interpretation, but I really like his hearing his point of view - it's interesting to know how he plays the character.

I'm glad that it has been clarified - I know it seems confusing, but I think it means that Sherlock isn't gay or straight as they're writing him. Whatever he is, it's repressed, and we're not going to see it. I'm glad of that - I prefer repressed Sherlock, even if there's a bit of arrogance in him thinking he's above all that - it fits with the character (for me, anyway).

Whisky · March 31, 2015 4:32 pm

I think imagination is stronger than the real thing could ever be, so I think it's wise not to pray too much for Sherlock to go all the way on the show :D
Who ever says Sherlock never got close to Janine? They kissed, but was it only kisses all the time? They also shared a bath. Janine was disappointed they didn't have proper sex, but there might have still have happened a lot in the grey land of not-quite-sex-but-kind-of-sex. I just think Janine wouldn't be with an asexual man. She looks very much like a girl who likes to get physical, which she even says herself.

But I really think John isn't portrayed as straight on the show. But what do I know.

REReader · March 31, 2015 4:36 pm

ITA, Ah-chie!

And with Liberty, too--definitely, they have come down on the "repressed sexuality" side, which is extremely canonical.

As I pointed out in the friendship thread, Moffat was careful to specifically show respect to fan fiction writers that go in a different direction, both in this piece and in another recent interview (here). It's sad that he isn't granted the same respect for HIS work.

Last edited by REReader (March 31, 2015 4:36 pm)

nakahara · March 31, 2015 5:22 pm

To be honest, I can´t think of anything which can be added to HLV to make it even more romantic than it already is (and I am not speaking about Sherlock - Janine interaction here).

(If this means disrespect to SM, then yes, I am a disrespectful heretic!)

This Is The Phantom Lady · March 31, 2015 5:23 pm

If he's not gay, or straight... is he bisexual?

I for one refuse to believe that he doesn't have a sexuality at all... I suppose he does try to keep his urges away to clear the brain (but... and here my silly relations with men might have taught me something wrong... is any man really able to just completely ignore urges?? Even Sherlock?)

I think a strength in the show is that nothing is really blatant and clear... you can ship what you want if you believe it strongly enough.

nakahara · March 31, 2015 5:47 pm

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
I for one refuse to believe that he doesn't have a sexuality at all... I suppose he does try to keep his urges away to clear the brain (but... and here my silly relations with men might have taught me something wrong... is any man really able to just completely ignore urges?? Even Sherlock?)

Well, if we believe certain Mr. Magnussen, Sherlock´s porn preference is very normal, so he has the same urges as any other man.

This Is The Phantom Lady wrote:
I think a strength in the show is that nothing is really blatant and clear... you can ship what you want if you believe it strongly enough.

Which brings me to the fact that it´s entirely in Steven Moffat´s power to confirm Sherlock as a heterosexual man without neccessarily changing his status as a bachelor. Movie "Young Sherlock Holmes" by Steven Spielberg managed to do this in a very sweet, endearing manner. And this will stop speculations forever.

Sherlock Holmes · March 31, 2015 7:26 pm

We have two topics related to Sherlock's Sexuality, so they're going to be merged.

tonnaree · March 31, 2015 7:31 pm

Thanks boss.

Whisky · March 31, 2015 8:01 pm

(ot) Uh, I've never seen sth being merged before... it's sexy! (end of ot)

@Swanpride: I also think label sounds quite negative, and I agree it's never good to stick those labels on people.
But I also think that in terms of characterization, it's okay to discuss sexuality.
We sort things to categories we already know all the time, conscious or unconscious. We also sort new people into categories we already know. The brain is wired that way I suppose, it likes recognizing things and behaviours and generally patterns. I don't think that's bad per se, it's just a human way of coping with many different impressions. If my friend eats chocolate everyday for five years, I feel confident to say "she likes chocolate". But I wouldn't say that the first time I see her eating chocolate.
It's maybe not exactly smooth to transfer that to a TV show character, but if Sherlock never shows interest in sex, I feel kind of okay (after three series) to say: he probably doesn't like sex, OR: the writers don't want to show him having a desire for sex OR the writers implying that it's irrelevant to the show if Sherlock has a desire for sex or not.
And if John only dates women, I'm fine to say: he likes dating women. If I don't see John dating men, I think: probably he doesn't want to date men. But if I see John staring at Sherlock in a certain way very often, I think: he might have an interest in that man, maybe my first impression wasn't the complete image. My brain just adds a category for it, which could also be called: men who like dating women and also show interest in men.

Last edited by Whisky (March 31, 2015 8:07 pm)

Vhanja · March 31, 2015 8:05 pm

I would have to say that based on what I*ve seen in the series, Sherlock must at least be bisexual (if not heterosexual). It might be just me (and I open to it being just my personal interpretation), but I feel I can sense a sexual attraction/confusion/frustration from Sherlock towards Irene.

Liberty · March 31, 2015 8:21 pm

Yes, I sense something there too, Vhanja. But (given Benedict's comments on the subject) I wonder how much of that is Benedict's portrayal and how much is the writers' intent?

Sherlock does seem to react to Irene in a way that he doesn't to anybody else (male or female) .. and there's all the mirroring that goes on.

nakahara · March 31, 2015 8:33 pm

NatureNoHumansNo wrote:
We walk into that one all the time,” Moffat tells EW. “It’s a funny thing when a character for over 100 years has been saying, ‘I don’t do that at all.’ He’s been saying it over 100 years! He’s not interested in [sex]. He’s willfully staying away from that to keep his brain pure—a Victorian belief, that. But everyone wants to believe he’s gay. He’s not gay. He’s not straight. And Doctor Watson is very clear that he prefers women. People want to fantasize about it. It’s fine. But it’s not in the show.

Sorry, Vhanja and Liberty, if I interrupt you for a while but I want to return to something Steven Moffat had said. He said that staying away from affairs of love to keep your head clean is some Victorian belief. But this is wrong - there´s no Victorian belief like this. AC Doyle only wrote his character like that because it didn´t interest him to write romances. Let me cite something from his other book "Land of Mist", from the passage where he introduces young couple to the readers:

THE love-affair of Enid Challenger and Edward Malone is not of the slightest interest to the reader, for the simple reason that it is not of the slightest interest to the writer. The unseen, unnoticed lure of the unborn babe is common to all youthful humanity. We deal in this chronicle with matters which are less common and of higher interest. It is only mentioned in order to explain those terms of frank and intimate comradeship which the narrative discloses.

Let me also doubt that Sherlock ever said something about sex in canon. The act of sex was too crude a subject for Victorians to be mentioned with this directness in such popular reading material for the masses. What Sherlock actually mentions frequently is his distrust towards women, which is a different thing altogether.

Last edited by nakahara (March 31, 2015 8:34 pm)