BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Sherlock and Sholto

Liberty · March 9, 2015 6:56 pm

Schmiezi wrote:
A question for native speakers: (And I am re-phrasing it for the fourth time now. It really is complicated for me to talk about it in an abstract way in a foreign language, so I will use an example).

When Mary says, "neither of us were the first, you know" , can it only mean "Neither you nor I were his first XXX (close friend or lover or soulmate or poker partner or whatever)", or can it also mean "I wasn't his first love and you weren't his first best friend"?

As a native speaker, I'd say that it could mean either. So it's open to interpretation.

My interpretation is that I don't think Mary is lumping herself in with Sherlock and Sholto there. Sholto is a surprise to Sherlock, because he didn't think John had a "best friend" before him - but Mary already knew that John had Sherlock's friendship - there would never have been a point when she could have had to accept that she wasn't the first (if that makes any sense!). She doesn't seem to see either Sherlock or Sholto as a rival. Sherlock clearly does see Sholto as a rival, but doesn't see Mary as one. So I think Mary is talking about two different roles in John's life - but neither of them was the first in their role.

REReader · March 9, 2015 7:19 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Interesting thread. The comment "neither of us were the first, you know" is something I've always interpreted as Mary saying John has had girlfriends before Mary and very close friends before Sherlock. It's meant as a comment (and sort of comfort) to Sherlock when Mary sees his obvious discomfort and jealousy. I imagine since Sherlock has never had any close friends before, he probably assumed John hadn't either. And I can actually understand that stinging a bit.

This is how I automatically understood it; it seems the simplest and most likely meaning.

tonnaree · March 10, 2015 1:28 am

I still find it an odd choice of phrasing. Especially from the bride to the best man.

Schmiezi · March 10, 2015 5:30 am

Thank you, native speakers.

I disagree about the comment being nice, but I will post more about that at the Mary thread, I think.

SusiGo · March 10, 2015 12:55 pm

There is another interesting parallel between Sherlock and Sholto at the beginning of TSoT. Sherlock walking into his bedroom, looking at his "battle dress" and saying "Into battle", immediately followed by Sholto putting on his uniform. Two men in battle dress, both facing a daunting task for the sake of John Watson.

tonnaree · March 10, 2015 1:10 pm

SusiGo wrote:
There is another interesting parallel between Sherlock and Sholto at the beginning of TSoT. Sherlock walking into his bedroom, looking at his "battle dress" and saying "Into battle", immediately followed by Sholto putting on his uniform. Two men in battle dress, both facing a daunting task for the sake of John Watson.

Oh yes, that wasn't even subtle!

Even if you don't consider it with an eye for Johnlock, TSoT is filled with Sherlock/Sholto parallels. This was purposeful.

Vhanja · March 10, 2015 1:57 pm

SusiGo wrote:
There is another interesting parallel between Sherlock and Sholto at the beginning of TSoT. Sherlock walking into his bedroom, looking at his "battle dress" and saying "Into battle", immediately followed by Sholto putting on his uniform. Two men in battle dress, both facing a daunting task for the sake of John Watson.

Wow, never thought of this, but it makes so much sense.

Lilythiell · March 11, 2015 8:49 pm

SusiGo wrote:
There is another interesting parallel between Sherlock and Sholto at the beginning of TSoT. Sherlock walking into his bedroom, looking at his "battle dress" and saying "Into battle", immediately followed by Sholto putting on his uniform. Two men in battle dress, both facing a daunting task for the sake of John Watson.

Wow, I had never thought of it in that way, to me honest I tended to try and focus on Johnlock-y connections, but, now that you mention it, TSoT is full of Sherlock/Sholto connections. Thank you for pointing it out!

tonnaree · March 11, 2015 9:55 pm

Lilythiell wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
There is another interesting parallel between Sherlock and Sholto at the beginning of TSoT. Sherlock walking into his bedroom, looking at his "battle dress" and saying "Into battle", immediately followed by Sholto putting on his uniform. Two men in battle dress, both facing a daunting task for the sake of John Watson.
Wow, I had never thought of it in that way, to me honest I tended to try and focus on Johnlock-y connections, but, now that you mention it, TSoT is full of Sherlock/Sholto connections. Thank you for pointing it out!

I see the Sherlock/Sholto connections as being tinged with hints of Johnlock.

tykobrian · March 13, 2015 1:05 pm

Another parallel:

John helplessly watching Sherlock ‘commit suicide’ and grieving for years
John (and Sherlock) talking Sholto out of committing suicide and further treat him for the fatal stab wound. (Even the way sholto tossed away his gun looked like the scene where Sherlock did the same with his phone at the infamous roof of Bart's)

Thank heavens they could talk down Sholto from taking his life, otherwise it would’ve been the second person John helplessly witnessed commit suicide. His bitter smile when Sholto compares himself with Sherlock proves to me that he is aware of the situation. IMO it works as a redemption moment for Sherlock, helping John save his suicidal friend for a change.

SusiGo · March 19, 2015 8:11 am

Another interesting parallel from John's POV:

The two men he loves/admires/is friends with have both been publicly humiliated and nearly destroyed by media coverage.

I read a meta which mentions this in connection with the "he is playing with your mind, too" scene in TRF. This scene that is about trust and belief in another person against all odds (and actually all scenes in which John refers to the danger of media coverage) becomes even more heartbreaking if you remember that at this point Sholto's personal catastrophe had probably already happened and that John must have been fully aware of it.
He knows about the power of modern media, the ability to destroy people's reputation even if they are not been guilty in a legal sense which Sholto obviously is not. John knows about this and cannot do anything to prevent that to happen to Sherlock.

Lola Red · March 19, 2015 11:50 am

tonnaree · March 19, 2015 11:58 am

SusiGo wrote:
Another interesting parallel from John's POV:

The two men he loves/admires/is friends with have both been publicly humiliated and nearly destroyed by media coverage.

I read a meta which mentions this in connection with the "he is playing with your mind, too" scene in TRF. This scene that is about trust and belief in another person against all odds (and actually all scenes in which John refers to the danger of media coverage) becomes even more heartbreaking if you remember that at this point Sholto's personal catastrophe had probably already happened and that John must have been fully aware of it.
He knows about the power of modern media, the ability to destroy people's reputation even if they are not been guilty in a legal sense which Sholto obviously is not. John knows about this and cannot do anything to prevent that to happen to Sherlock.

Wow Susi. I never made that connection. Factoring in John's experiance with Sholto gives events in TRF a whole new layer of meaning.

nakahara · March 19, 2015 3:04 pm

Jealous lover checking on the ex-boyfriend?

SusiGo · March 19, 2015 3:07 pm

Yes, quite a telling moment. At least we can be sure Sherlock does not want to see John how interested he is in Sholto.

nakahara · March 19, 2015 3:11 pm

Yes, he tries to be very inconspicious in checking Sholto out - while being downrigh obssessed with the thoughts about this former John´s commander.

tonnaree · March 19, 2015 3:35 pm

nakahara wrote:
Jealous lover checking on the ex-boyfriend?

Sherlock had to make a new subsection of John's file for Sholto.

Russell · March 19, 2015 5:06 pm

tonnaree wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Another interesting parallel from John's POV:

The two men he loves/admires/is friends with have both been publicly humiliated and nearly destroyed by media coverage.

I read a meta which mentions this in connection with the "he is playing with your mind, too" scene in TRF. This scene that is about trust and belief in another person against all odds (and actually all scenes in which John refers to the danger of media coverage) becomes even more heartbreaking if you remember that at this point Sholto's personal catastrophe had probably already happened and that John must have been fully aware of it.
He knows about the power of modern media, the ability to destroy people's reputation even if they are not been guilty in a legal sense which Sholto obviously is not. John knows about this and cannot do anything to prevent that to happen to Sherlock.

Wow Susi. I never made that connection. Factoring in John's experiance with Sholto gives events in TRF a whole new layer of meaning.

"The media will turn on you, Sherlock. They always do." … Wow, yeah. No wonder the bitter smile when Sherlock and Sholto agree they're a bit alike. Thanks for that.

SusiGo · March 19, 2015 5:08 pm

I love these parallels and interconnections between episodes. Such clever writing.

tykobrian · March 23, 2015 11:06 am

nakahara wrote:
Jealous lover checking on the ex-boyfriend?

This is somewhat off topic so I won't paste the post here but there is an interesting insinuation in the way the Sholto web page is designed. I have to say this is the most carefully crafted show I've ever watched. The little things they put in there for the audience to find out. What amazes me the most is that they are not afraid to keep the clues hidden/ subtle enough for it to be difficult to notice.

Last edited by tykobrian (March 23, 2015 11:07 am)