BBC Sherlock Fan Forum - Serving Sherlockians since February 2012 » Mary

Whisky · March 16, 2015 4:18 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Sorry if this is not referring to the last posts but I found this TEH meta quite interesting. Especially the idea that Mary might have observed Sherlock from above:

http://deducingbbcsherlock.tumblr.com/post/81317834836/if-you-havent-already-done-it-id-be-interested

I'm not convinced there is something off in her reaction to Sherlock. It's interesting, but it doesn't convince me. Sherlock was in disguise, I think it's okay for her to take a few moments to make the connection. Especially if you don't expect somebody to be alive. I can't imagine her lurking around on the upper floor, either. If she was behaving like this all the time, taking secret calls, observing, like she has her own agenda, John would get suspicious at some point, wouldn't he? I think she really tried for the Mary role, and I think that excludes taking secret phonecalls during proposal dinner. I also would totally say "sorry that took so long" when going to the toilet just before someone wants to ask me a question like that. Maybe she was nervous indeed.

I find her reaction to the proposal stranger than her reaction to Sherlock.

Last edited by Whisky (March 16, 2015 4:22 pm)

tykobrian · March 16, 2015 4:31 pm

SusiGo wrote:
Sorry if this is not referring to the last posts but I found this TEH meta quite interesting. Especially the idea that Mary might have observed Sherlock from above:

http://deducingbbcsherlock.tumblr.com/post/81317834836/if-you-havent-already-done-it-id-be-interested

Also she gives furtive looks towards her right, where Sherlock went away minutes ago and from where he’ll appear soon! (Just watch the scene if you can for now if you wanna be sure, I’ll gif it soon.)

Last edited by tykobrian (March 16, 2015 4:31 pm)

tykobrian · March 16, 2015 4:34 pm

Whisky wrote:
SusiGo wrote:
Sorry if this is not referring to the last posts but I found this TEH meta quite interesting. Especially the idea that Mary might have observed Sherlock from above:

http://deducingbbcsherlock.tumblr.com/post/81317834836/if-you-havent-already-done-it-id-be-interested
I'm not convinced there is something off in her reaction to Sherlock. It's interesting, but it doesn't convince me. Sherlock was in disguise, I think it's okay for her to take a few moments to make the connection. Especially if you don't expect somebody to be alive. I can't imagine her lurking around on the upper floor, either. If she was behaving like this all the time, taking secret calls, observing, like she has her own agenda, John would get suspicious at some point, wouldn't he? I think she really tried for the Mary role, and I think that excludes taking secret phonecalls during proposal dinner. I also would totally say "sorry that took so long" when going to the toilet just before someone wants to ask me a question like that. Maybe she was nervous indeed.

I find her reaction to the proposal stranger than her reaction to Sherlock.

Mary the secret agent/ stoic assassin and nervous doesn’t sound right together. I mean this woman heard his husband’s best friend’s voice just when she was about to kill the person who was threatening to expose the secrets she desperately wanted to keep and still remained perfectly calm and rational. She is the last person who's gonna run to the bathroom for a breather after deducing her then boyfriend would propose her.

And if she was having a meltdown and needed to take a breather why did John decide to just sit it out? When she returns it’s actually her who’s asking him if he’s ok and it’s visibly him who’s the nervous one here. And looks like John didn’t even notice that Mary was nervous and went away to regroup herself because he doesn’t’ even ask if Mary’s ok. Because nothing like that happened.

Last edited by tykobrian (March 16, 2015 4:56 pm)

Lola Red · March 16, 2015 5:26 pm

That meta is quite interesting. I never realized that Mary was already in the restaurant. It does pose the question of what could be so important that she had to leave halfway through the proposal, she could always dismiss a phone call (or cross her legs).
The flicker of the eyes I find not conclusive, could work as a “and there is Sherlock”, as a “what is that waiter doing here” or a “oh look, movement”.
It does take her a long time to recognize Sherlock, though she has never met him in person before and (assuming she was not planted) there would be no reason to expect her so see him. So that part would kind of work either way for me.

tykobrian · March 16, 2015 5:39 pm

Lola Red wrote:
That meta is quite interesting. I never realized that Mary was already in the restaurant. It does pose the question of what could be so important that she had to leave halfway through the proposal, she could always dismiss a phone call (or cross her legs).
The flicker of the eyes I find not conclusive, could work as a “and there is Sherlock”, as a “what is that waiter doing here” or a “oh look, movement”.
It does take her a long time to recognize Sherlock, though she has never met him in person before and (assuming she was not planted) there would be no reason to expect her so see him. So that part would kind of work either way for me.

But Sherlock is not like say a reality show and they are not filming Mary and John live without any prior direction. Two consecutive furtive looks (and I mean really furtive, I noticed them very recently. We all are so absorbed with Sherlock and John's part of the scene) like those doesn't make much sense. It feels so random. And she is doing this when John is about to propose to her and she already has guessed what is about to happen. And she is still being distracted by the ambience?

Also, a person like Mary taking this long to recognize the famous Sherlock while dating his best friend -who she helped recover from the grief of his death- and after John's violent reaction is rather hard for me to swallow. Maybe she tried to act to appear the things you said she should normally react to Sherlock and not being tipped off but overcompensated to fool/bluff him? Donno, but now that I think about it maybe this (and perhaps coupled with the fact she totally convinced John of her liking for his mustache while actually loathing it) is what led to Sherlock's infamous liar deduction.

Last edited by tykobrian (March 16, 2015 6:06 pm)

Liberty · March 16, 2015 6:46 pm

Good point about the "liar" deduction, Tykobrian. Those deductions are frustrating - the great thing about Sherlock Holmes is that we usually get told how he deduces things. But we don't get told how he makes those deductions about Mary, only that the only information he has to go on are those scenes in the restaurant. So how Mary looks, what she says and does, how John responds to her, etc. Yes, something in those scenes must show Mary to be a liar, but what? And why isn't it enough to make Sherlock suspicious of her right up until she shoots him?

(Although I'm not sure about the conclusions in the link).

Vhanja · March 16, 2015 7:02 pm

Couldn't she have simply gone to the bathroom? Either to use the loo or fix her make-up/hair?

Harriet · March 16, 2015 7:09 pm

Interesting to learn that it took her long on the loo
scnr

Liberty · March 16, 2015 7:14 pm

It might have something to do with wanting Sherlock to see and approach John on his own first.

Lola Red · March 16, 2015 7:18 pm

tykobrian wrote:
Lola Red wrote:
That meta is quite interesting. I never realized that Mary was already in the restaurant. It does pose the question of what could be so important that she had to leave halfway through the proposal, she could always dismiss a phone call (or cross her legs).
The flicker of the eyes I find not conclusive, could work as a “and there is Sherlock”, as a “what is that waiter doing here” or a “oh look, movement”.
It does take her a long time to recognize Sherlock, though she has never met him in person before and (assuming she was not planted) there would be no reason to expect her so see him. So that part would kind of work either way for me.
But Sherlock is not like say a reality show and they are not filming Mary and John live without any prior direction. Two consecutive furtive looks (and I mean really furtive, I noticed them very recently. We all are so absorbed with Sherlock and John's part of the scene) like those doesn't make much sense. It feels so random. And she is doing this when John is about to propose to her and she already has guessed what is about to happen. And she is still being distracted by the ambience?

Also, a person like Mary taking this long to recognize the famous Sherlock while dating his best friend -who she helped recover from the grief of his death- and after John's violent reaction is rather hard for me to swallow. Maybe she tried to act to appear the things you said she should normally react to Sherlock and not being tipped off but overcompensated to fool/bluff him? Donno, but now that I think about it maybe this (and perhaps coupled with the fact she totally convinced John of her liking for his mustache while actually loathing it) is what led to Sherlock's infamous liar deduction.

I was not referring to the screen shots you posted, but to the meta. There is a gif in it with a proportion-of-a-second eyelift from Mary as Sherlock sweeps in (on a side not, in the same gif John also looks up a bit- at the wine bottle- and moves his eyebrows). That I do not find conclusive. And as I said, the not recognizing Sherlock for quite a while works in both scenarios for me. For me it could be honestly not recognising someone who is supposed to be dead and who she never saw in the flesh or it could be faking astonishment.
What Sherlock bases his deductions on often escapes me, so I will refrain from speculating on that.

Lola Red · March 16, 2015 7:23 pm

Vhanja wrote:
Couldn't she have simply gone to the bathroom? Either to use the loo or fix her make-up/hair?

But why do that in the middle of a proposal? Mary seems to know what is coming, so I guess a bathroom break could have waited another two minutes, especially if she just wanted to fix her hair and make-up.

Liberty · March 16, 2015 7:25 pm

Actually, I think it makes sense to nip to the loo and fix makeup, etc., if she thought John was about to propose (rather than going just after the proposal).

Whisky · March 16, 2015 9:58 pm

I think it's like with Sherlock. Feelings are another modus than work. Why can't Mary be absolutely calm and cold during work, and be nervous when someone proposes to her? That's two very different levels of interaction. Apparently her emotions aren't much involved when she is threatening people. But with John, with a proposal, maybe she shows nerves. Would make sense to me. Also, in the office with Magnusson, she is already in her working modus - and we don't see her first reaction to Sherlock's voice, because her back is to us. She has quite a few seconds to control her emotions there.

and sorry, that's a bit in a different place again:
I just rewatched HLV.
When Sherlock says "that wasn't a miss, that was surgery", Mary's face isn't really... affirming. To me it looked a tiny bit like surprise. Or disappointment.
And after she says "it was a fairly obvious trick", she looks completely pissed off. Why?

Does anyone have the same impression?

Last edited by Whisky (March 16, 2015 10:04 pm)

SusiGo · March 16, 2015 10:04 pm

I think she did not expect him to side with her. She has to adjust to this turn but later in 221B she seems to be quite glad to have him explain her alleged motives and actions.

Maybe because she thinks Sherlock underestimates her? Or because of the projection trick? Or the fact that he left hospital and lured her there at all?

Whisky · March 16, 2015 10:09 pm

I wondered just again (we had that before I think): could Mary tried killing Sherlock and failed? I keep thinking that, but everything else speaks against it. Just, somehow, it would explain her reaction in Leinster Gardens. It wouldn't explain why she is running through the hospital as if she's in a hurry to get to John to know about Sherlock, it doesn't explain her accepting Sherlock's guidance in the talk with John... Just in that scene, it all feels off to me. I don't know if it's maybe the acting, but I always see a little smile on her face in those moments, like "ha, if you knew what I really intended"... but it's really hard to be sure, its a lot of interpretation.

Last edited by Whisky (March 16, 2015 10:10 pm)

SusiGo · March 16, 2015 10:12 pm

Not everything speaks against it. After all she says explicitly that she is going to kill him if he does not stand back. And her reaction in the hospital is more than strange. John being over the moon and her just asking "Really? Seriously?" Not "thank God" or "I am so glad", just this. And I think she accepts Sherlock's version because it provides her with a way out she would not have had without Sherlock.

Whisky · March 16, 2015 10:16 pm

So the "really? seriously?" could mean: "I can't believe that shot wasn't fatal" ?
That would immediatly imply she never loved John and never wanted John, because it's not believable he would stay with her knowing she is Sherlock's murder.
But I see her wanting John. That's what is so frustrating.

SusiGo · March 16, 2015 10:18 pm

Well, she immediately afterwards goes to Sherlock and threatens him not to tell John. So it might be possible that she hoped Sherlock would die and John would never learn about her past.

Whisky · March 16, 2015 10:21 pm

Doesn't make sense. She is alone in that room with Sherlock. Her being who she is, if she wanted Sherlock dead and he isn't yet, she could have killed him easily off in that hospital room. She doesn't.
It doesn't work either way, it makes my head spin.

nakahara · March 16, 2015 10:35 pm

Whisky wrote:
Doesn't make sense. She is alone in that room with Sherlock. Her being who she is, if she wanted Sherlock dead and he isn't yet, she could have killed him easily off in that hospital room.

Patients with Sherlock´s injuries have pulse monitors and other things attatched to them, so that the nurses would be alarmed if patient´s heart suddenly stopped. So maybe it was too risky for Mary kill him there? She could be seen and identified by some chance if she did try to harm Sherlock there? Because in Lenister Gardens, Mary didn´t seem to hesitate anymore and pulled out a gun on Sherlock - but she obviously didn´t dare to do it i hospital.