But we have reason to assume that Mary did a lot of bad things. It is not just supported by Magnussen (who is usually right in his pressure points) but also by her own statement that John will not love her anymore if he reads the contents of the flash drive and learns about her past. 

On the other hand we do not get such hints with regard to Sherlock and John. 
 

I agree. IMO Sherlock and John cannot be compared to Mary, their motives and their whole behaviour with regard to violence are completely different. This does not mean that they do not make questionable decisions now and then but they are meant to be basically positive characters, the protagonists of the show. Equalling them to Mary IMO would mean to turn the show upside down. 

Yes, that is true. For me the "side of the angels" quote is still one of the best statements about Sherlock. And it seems at least questionable if we can put Mary on the side of the angels. 

nakahara wrote:

In the scene of TRF where Moriarty is shot, it is apparent that Sherlock never did foresee that - he is genuinely shocked and shaken. His original plan to save himself was almost certainly counting on Moriarty´s survival.

I just wonder what Sherlock thought would happen to Moriarty in the end of the game. I mean, Moriarty proved he could get out of a court case easily. So what means were there to finally stop him? What had Sherlock planned for that roof meetup?
I'm just saying, Sherlock finally shooting Magnusson might not be as random as it appears. Maybe Moriarty is a key to this development in Sherlock - that he finally decides to kill as a way of stopping someone. And I wonder if Sherlock's shooting of Magnusson will change Sherlock's approach to Moriarty... if he should be back (which I hope not)...

nakahara wrote:

Sherlock did not need to make his own hands dirty.

I am not sure. He seemed under pressure. I don't know, I am not sure I can assume he managed to get through two years without getting any dirt on his hands. It just feels unlikely to me. What would he for example do in a case of self-defense? I suppose if he was threatened, he would defend himself. Maybe shoot someone. Which would be still self-defense, but leads to your second point:

nakahara wrote:

Really, if Sherlock is an experienced killer, then his characterisation in HLV is all wrong.
 

That's true. I suppose it could still be true that it is the first actual murder he commits. Because self-defense would be in another category. Although I keep thinking about how he said he isn't an angel. Being on the side of the angels just means defending and helping their cause. It doesn't mean to keep his own hands clean. And he hurt people willingly. He might have had a reason to hurt the cabbie, for information or whatever. But throwing that guy out of that window on Mrs. Hudsons bins was nothing but revenge and hurting someone in cold blood. I don't want to say that makes Sherlock also capable of cold-blooded murder, murder is still a big step further. And I agree that he is very emotional while shooting Magnusson. But I really don't want to close my eyes to the fact that he has this streak of not-good-behaviour.

Mary could be on either side right now, in the process of switching, whatever. But Sherlock also has toes on the borderline, and I think he crossed it once with shooting Magnusson, and if he crossed it again, it could lead to a path that could be similar to a path that Mary once went down. Theoretically, because it's still a show about a great detective, and we know it's not going there. But it's interesting characterization, I think. And that's what I mean with similarities. I don't think they are in the same place. I just think they have the same potential in a certain way.
Makes me think of that Harry Potter quote: "It is our choices, Harry, that show what we truly are, far more than our abilities.'
 

Last edited by Whisky (March 15, 2015 12:20 am)

I honestly cannot say. All I know is that right now it all seems sincere to me, but I have been fooled before and most of the time I could see it once I had more information. Right now I could see either “side” yelling a happy “called it” next season. I myself tend to believe the forgiveness was sincere, but I cannot exclude the possibility of a very convincing staging. If that is the case, they totally got me.
Would the writers leave us hanging with a lot of unanswered question for so long? Definitely.

Last edited by Lola Red (March 15, 2015 1:33 am)

Yes, I think they've left room to go either way.  No bridges have been burned. 

I think that Sherlock is shown as almost Christ-like in S3, so it's impossible to compare him with Mary.

I do think there's more to his distress about killing Magnussen (that we see after Magnussen shows him the vaults) than the idea of killing someone in cold blood.  He must also know how he's going to have to do it, and the consequences (risking his own death).    He's going to publicly become a murderer and go to some sort of hell (be it prison or exile) that he may not return from ... it has some parallels with the ending of TRF.   I think he is well aware of those consequences when he's contemplating what he (feels he) has to do. 

Moriarty's death is a bit ambiguous.  Whatever he says, my head canon is that he deliberately talked Moriarty into suicide and that was at least one of the planned scenarios.   He couldn't have gone ahead with Lazarus while Moriarty was alive and watching him.   Even if suicide wasn't planned, there had to have been some other plan to kill Moriarty - the trick was having a safe way to kill Moriarty.   (And I do think it's plausible that Sherlock and Mycroft would have planned to have Moriarty killed - there didn't seem to be any other way to deal with him, as the law didn't work).

We still don't know exactly why Mary killed, except that it looks like she was originally employed and then went freelance.   There could have been good or bad reasons for freelancing (maybe "good" is a stretch, but I mean that maybe she wanted to kill those people who "deserved to die" and were above the law - like Magnussen and Moriarty). 

As for what's on the stick that would make John stop loving her, that's really interesting and I hope it gets elaborated in S4.    The implication is "you could love me knowing that I'm an assassin, but you wouldn't love me if you knew this" - i.e. something other than "just" being an assassin, a cold-blooded killer.    It has to be something much worse (what's worse than her being an assassin?), or something more personal (such as that she killed somebody John knew, for instance - although she's come close to that anyway with shooting Sherlock!).    I've wondered if it could be that she was actually working when she met John and that she initially courted him as a secret agent.   Or maybe she had connections with the other side while John was in Afghanistan. 

Being associated with Moriarty?

She's had that identity for five years, but it doesn't mean she's been "good" all that time ... she could still have been working under the Mary Morstan identity.   There's that comment in the commentary about her being like Sherlock and John in that she can't go longer than six months without an adventure ... if that's the case, how has she managed five years?  

Moriarty is a possibility, but I feel that he's more Sherlock's nemesis than John's - that it wouldn't be so personal for John. 

Also, if there was a Moriarty connection, you'd expect Sherlock to have come across it - even perhaps when he was destroying Moriarty's network.   If it was a possibility at all in HLV, Sherlock would have investigated, wouldn't he?  But who knows ... maybe he did, and that will be revealed later.   Maybe he's keeping quiet as part of a greater plan, or maybe she was working against Moriarty.   I feel I want to know if Moriarty really is alive or not (because I still feel it's open for him to be dead).

I don't have a particular headcanon, but I kind of like the idea that she was still undercover when she met John, and perhaps was even targetting him.  But that raises all sorts of questions - did she know Sherlock was alive and was using John to get to Sherlock (to get to Mycroft)?    As for forgiving her - yes, if she turns out to be otherwise good, I think I could forgive her for initially targetting John then genuinely falling for him.   But it would be more difficult for John to forgive, maybe, hence "you won't love me". 

I've played with some other ideas, such as her having a secret child, husband, etc., but they're not really grabbing me.

Think the writers will solve it the way they kinda did TRF.
Everyone will be right and also wrong...so my headcanon goes something like..
Mary was cia and sent undercover to infiltrate Moriarty...then had to be naughty and wicked so the cia abandoned her...leaving her freelance...Moriarty got a little more insane...so she vanished herself and became Mary Morston...then Moriarty and Sherlocks death hit the papers so....she looked for John to see if it was really true and she was safe......then SH turned up....and  Magnussen....so hmmm one more kill NP......etc...@her panic that Moriarty is alive
So next maybe Moriarty or other bad guys expose all this..@she kills them.....which is all fine for SH but maybe too much for Johns strong moral principles....so she vanishes herself again....maybe from the cops or witness protection and leaves John a..... Dear John......You love Sherlock more....so stay and solve cases and have a happy ever after.......
Thus we are all correct ,Mary bad ass doing bad things is redeemed to Mary bad ass doing good things...... the shippers unite , and the fromance goes on.....
(@Fromance.... romantic friends like SH@JW goes into the dictionary) .

Last edited by lil (March 15, 2015 1:44 pm)

tykobrian wrote:

Swanpride wrote:

The way Sherlock talks with her ex-boyfriend means that she was in a normal realtionship with him before she meet John. And considering how similiar he looks to John, the suggestion is clearly that this is simply her "type" and that she was leading a normal life before she encountered John. When John and Mary marry they know each other for roughtly 2 years (John mentions that they have been together for one year when he tries to propose, and the actual wedding happens the following year). That would leave three years in this identity before she met John, and during this time, she had a "normal" relationship. To me it looks like the writers were telling the audience that she tried to have a new life as Mary until Magnussen threatened to destroy it.

john and mary know each other for around six months tops. Where did you hear him say an exact date? They don't mention any date.
 

I'm typing from my phone so sorry for any typos. We have pretty firm evidence that Mary is a very new addition to John’s life. John says so in his first attempt at a proposal, that “we haven’t known each other for a long time.” I would be a bit surprised if they’d been dating an entire year. A year is a fairly reasonable amount of time to date a person before considering marriage, I think. Not the longest time on record, but certainly not a remarkably short amount of time. At least, not one that requires specially noting as part of a proposal. The only number we know for a fact is six months, because that’s how long John’s been growing the moustache, and how long Mary has been putting up with it (“Six months of bristly kisses,” Mary says.) There’s very little evidence that John started growing a moustache shortly before or after meeting Mary, but I think it would make emotional sense to pair John’s moustache with their relationship. John’s life changed when he met her, and it makes sense to me that that’s the point when he would decided to change his appearance, as he felt his life veering in a different direction. The New John, as it were.

Supporting that idea is the fact that John didn’t have a moustache through the worst of his mourning (he doesn’t have it in Many Happy Returns, nor does Mary appear to be in the picture at that point), and he shaves off the moustache hours before heading back to Sherlock. That’s mostly speculation, though. What’s definitely true, however, is that John and Mary haven’t known each other for whatever John considers to be a long time.

Last edited by tykobrian (March 15, 2015 2:32 pm)