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March 11, 2015 7:56 am  #561


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But that is not exactly the guilt of the writers here, is it?

The scene in the drug den they have taken right out of Arthur Conan Doyle´s "The man with a Twisted Lip" - and yes, Sherlock was hiding right next to Isa Whitney, one of John´s neighbours, there. The London at that time had 4 millions of people, so more opium dens were available in the city, that´s certain, yet John and Sherlock coincidentaly met in that one.

A woman who wants to shoot CAM dead entering his villa, Appledore, exactly the evening during which John and Sherlock are burgling CAM´s safe, is the motive taken from "The Adventure of Charles Augustus Milverton" too. Here, in HLV, there was even a slight possibility that Mary and Sherlock could both be set up by Janine who gave them incorrect information about CAM´s wherebouts.

Both "plot-holes" were just the attempt of the authors to adapt the scenes from the original and play with them a bit.


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 11, 2015 8:06 am  #562


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

That's true, nakahara, must reread "The man with the twisted lip". 


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 11, 2015 8:30 am  #563


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

But maybe they didn't play enough with it yet and should have played some more. Because don't get me wrong, I really appreciate their nods to canon, but canon or not, stuff like this doesn't really work for me in a modern tv show. Mofftiss are so damn good, they should be able to do something about such plot holes... unless of course they don't care.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 11, 2015 8:34 am  #564


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I think HLV is just Mary's story and the writers needed to knit a couple of things around here.


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 11, 2015 8:38 am  #565


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

You are right about the coincidences and all that. But still, my main problem with this episode are the (apparently) incredible character developments, i.e. the whole forgiveness business. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2015 8:57 am  #566


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

In case you are referring to the Sholto scene: I was not critisicing a dry sense of humour but hurting someone else deliberately. And to me Sherlock looks hurt, not amused. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2015 8:58 am  #567


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

You are right about the coincidences and all that. But still, my main problem with this episode are the (apparently) incredible character developments, i.e. the whole forgiveness business. 

That's true, question (still) is: Do we buy it or not?
 


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 11, 2015 9:11 am  #568


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

As I said before - I cannot buy it. If I have to, it would be bad writing (my personal opinion as for others it does obviously work). Because I get the impression that they do not even try to convince me. Some selfish tears in front of the fireplace? Sorry, this is not enough. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2015 9:20 am  #569


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

In case you are referring to the Sholto scene: I was not critisicing a dry sense of humour but hurting someone else deliberately. And to me Sherlock looks hurt, not amused. 

 
Are we discussing humour here? Sorry, I didn't get that, I thought the Sholto-wedding scene was about comforting or not? Or is it the beginning of HLV ? I just see tension there , no humour. Or what is this about?


------------------------------------------------------------

Eventually everyone will support Johnlock.


"If you're not reading the subtext then hell mend you"  -  Steven Moffat
"Love conquers all" Benedict Cumberbatch on Sherlock's and John's relationship
"This is a show about a detective, his best friend, his wife, their baby and their dog" - Nobody. Ever.

 

March 11, 2015 9:23 am  #570


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Was not sure either as I cannot remember anyone complaining about Mary's humour in that scene. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2015 9:46 am  #571


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

I thought the "See? That does happen" was the kind of banter the two of them have always had between each other. It continues throughout the scene, as with John's "Pretend I said that without shouting". It seems to me that kind of banter is what they do.


__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
"We'll live on starlight and crime scenes" - wordstrings


Team Hudders!
 
 

March 11, 2015 9:55 am  #572


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Her "See? That does happen" doesn't sound like banter to me (and I stress: to me), to my ears it sounds self-opinionated and bitchy. It's not just the words, it's how she says it and the way she looks at John while saying it.
I agree though that their "You're pregnant, you can't come" - "I'm pregnant, you can't go"-dialogue makes me smile - although this once again is one of those times where it seems to me that the writers are telling me that things don't work anymore without Mary and that in the future she'll always find 'an excuse' to come along.


___________________________________________________
"Am I the current King of England?

"I see no shame in having an unhealthy obsession with something." - David Tennant
"We did observe." - David Tennant in "Richard II"

 
 

March 11, 2015 9:56 am  #573


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SusiGo wrote:

As I said before - I cannot buy it. If I have to, it would be bad writing (my personal opinion as for others it does obviously work). Because I get the impression that they do not even try to convince me. Some selfish tears in front of the fireplace? Sorry, this is not enough. 





 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 11, 2015 10:01 am  #574


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

SolarSystem wrote:

But maybe they didn't play enough with it yet and should have played some more. Because don't get me wrong, I really appreciate their nods to canon, but canon or not, stuff like this doesn't really work for me in a modern tv show. Mofftiss are so damn good, they should be able to do something about such plot holes... unless of course they don't care.

I think they were just trying to retain the key elements of the original scenes so that those would be still recognisable. They also retained a bit of "fairy-tale" feeling of the original Sherlock´s stories. They certainly could make the cases more realistic, but "Sherlock" would probably resemble "Elementary" then and loose its unique charm, I guess.

I agree that the motives of the characters and their strange decisions are more unbelievable here than "coincidences and plot-holes" taken from the Canon.
 


-----------------------------------

I cannot live without brainwork. What else is there to live for? Stand at the window there. Was there ever such a dreary, dismal, unprofitable world? See how the yellow fog swirls down the street and drifts across the dun-coloured houses. What could be more hopelessly prosaic and material? What is the use of having powers, Doctor, when one has no field upon which to exert them?

 

March 11, 2015 10:27 am  #575


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

To me Mary and John both seem very tense at the beginning of HLV. Possibly because John is bored out of his skin and without Sherlock to take him to the battlefield his PTSD is playing up again. We know (thanks to Mycroft in ASIP) that John's nightmares are not so much about the things that traumatise him, but about the things he misses. And now he misses the war and Sherlock. Maybe Mary is just annoyed by the tension coming for him, maybe she feels she is not enough. Or maybe, thanks to the close proximity to Sherlock, she too has gotten caught up in the danger vortex that surrounds him. Based on her former career choices, she seems to be like that almost as much as John does. Maybe that is why she (after presumably 5 years of abstinence) is looking to join the danger too. They both are caught up in the idea of having a normal live, but neither of them seems to be cut out for it.

edit:
About John finding Sherlock in the drug den. It might be the other way around. Maybe Sherlock was looking for John. For some reason they did not have any contact for a month before that. Maybe Sherlock was forcing his way back into John’s life this way. “Officially”, Sherlock’s relapse into drugs is supposed to be for CAM’s benefit, yet Sherlock does not at all seem surprised that CAM does not buy it. So maybe the whole rouse was for John’s benefit. For Sherlock it would have been quite easy to figure out that one of John’s neighbours had a drug habit as well as where the boy would go to get the drugs. Sherlock could from there quite easily deduce that John’s danger addicted nature would have him in that drug den quite quickly. Seeing Sherlock back on drugs would inevitably cause John to give in to sentiment, he would never leave Sherlock behind in such a state. Isn’t it lucky that after a month of silence, John ends up in 221b again on the very same day that CAM comes over? The very same day Sherlock needs to recruit John again?
 

Last edited by Lola Red (March 11, 2015 10:43 am)


****************************************************************************************************************************************
We balance probabilities and choose the most likely. It is the scientific use of the imagination.    
     Thread Starter
 

March 11, 2015 10:28 am  #576


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

True. And this is reflected later in Sherlock's words about the doctor's wife getting bored in the suburbs. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2015 11:15 am  #577


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

And why else should Sherlock turn around and talk to John in the drug den?
He could've just stayed quiet and John wouldn't have noticed him at all.
He wanted John to find him.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

March 11, 2015 11:36 am  #578


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

Interesting idea.

And what does this tell us about Sherlock? That he is more given to sentiment than some expected him to be? That he clearly misjudges John's reaction because he seems not very happy to pee in the jar at St. Barts? That he is missing John so much that he cannot be without him for a month? That his main reason for taking drugs was not to delude Magnussen but a nod to Canon ("For me there still remains cocaine-bottle?")

But then again he reacts defensively when John remarks on the missing chair. Mixed messages, I suppose. 

Last edited by SusiGo (March 11, 2015 11:38 am)


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

March 11, 2015 11:47 am  #579


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

IDK..... He misses John so much that he even risks that angry reaction in the drug den? 

It just was my thought when I saw it the first time. Why on earth should he turn around and take off his hood / take down his disguise and talk to John if he wants to stay unnoticed? I'm sure he has an idea how John might react to find him there / like that.


__________________________________

"After all this time?" "Always."
Good bye, Lord Rickman of the Alan
 

March 11, 2015 11:59 am  #580


Re: Mary – the subject of discussion

You are absolutely right. 


------------------------------
"To fake the death of one sibling may be regarded as a misfortune; to fake the death of both looks like carelessness." Oscar Wilde about Mycroft Holmes

"It is what it is says love." (Erich Fried)

“Enjoy the journey of life and not just the endgame. I’m also a great believer in treating others as you would like to be treated.” (Benedict Cumberbatch)



 
 

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